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Finished: 06 PM Wed 13 Feb 19 UTC
Featured Gunboat Funboat-23
1 days /phase (normal)
Pot: 1050 D - Autumn, 1917, Finished
No in-game messaging, Anonymous players, Sum-of-Squares Scoring, Hidden draw votes
Game won by josemurc (25590 D)
12 Feb 19 UTC Congrats jose!
12 Feb 19 UTC Congrats Jose. And sorry Russia and Turkey, I really screwed some moves, Tunis was pretty defendable.
12 Feb 19 UTC Congratulations, Jose!
12 Feb 19 UTC @italy: Yeah, I thought we had a shot there. I could have broke free into the west if Russia had bought us just a little more time. Nice coordinating with you after our rather conflicted start.
12 Feb 19 UTC I'd like to understand the thought behind Turkey walking into Russian territories in 1912 while I was setting up a line against France.
12 Feb 19 UTC @russia - you needed more troops, so I moved them to places where I could support you advancing against France without taking your supply centers, which I could have easily done. Check my orders I gave the unit in Galicia. I even parked my fleet in Sevastopol so that it couldn't threaten Moscow. And think about it: if I had stabbed you, that would have ensured a French victory years earlier, and I'd get just as little out of it...so just maybe I was trying to put some of my own armies up against France.

Overall, I signaled R-T alliance from the start, even giving you the Black Sea. That was going pretty well, but then you decided to stab me in Trieste, so I had to change plans for survival. England collapsed really quick (how _did_ that happen?), so any further campaign against you had to stop. Why did you give up on an R-T so early, given that you were the larger of the two parties?
13 Feb 19 UTC Why I stabbed Turkey:
This was a tough decision as I wanted to keep working together. Let’s look at the board. England and France were working together at the time and in fact England was all out attacking Russia in the north. While I could go toe to toe by dedicating 5/8 of my forces in the north, it was a stalemate.

In the south, Italy was heavily invested in attacking the few units I had; Italy’s focus on Russia opened an opportunity for Turkey to make gains while I was stagnate. The issue was not that my ally was getting centers, but that Turkey already had 4 fleets and didn’t need more. That meant when Turkey was about to capture Venice and Trieste, I would probably see army builds. So what do I do? These are the main points I considered.

1) Do nothing and wait for an opening. I felt like Turkey wanted to work with me, but this seemed quite risky as a growing Turkey putting more armies on my border was not the most comfortable position to be in.
2) Take my three units on the Turkish border and go attack Germany. Germany was already struggling against the west, so this means strengthening France/England while leaving no units defending against a bunch of procreating Turkish armies.
3) Cede Sweden/St. Pete to England and focus on growing elsewhere. I didn’t like this because it meant I would go two units and the remaining unts would have to focus on defense so I wouldn’t really be able to reallocate them to somewhere more useful.
4) Stab Turkey NOW before Turkey gets Trieste and Venice. With some luck I will get a build and Italy on my side sufficient to knock out Turkey. I felt if nothing changes for me, sooner or later you would come after me and this was my last chance to stab before you were too strong.

You know what I chose...
13 Feb 19 UTC @Russia, but then why such a weak stab? If you're going to stab, take Bulgaria! Say I did keep Trieste, now it's sandwiched between you and Italy. All you did was trade a friendly border with me for a enemy border with Italy.

Also, if my four fleets made you think that any further builds would be armies, than how many fewer fleets (and thus more armies) would have made you think I did want to work with you? I suspect there is no answer, and your assertion about fleets is just hindsight justification.

In the end, I don't get how "I'm stalemated against Italy on one front and the E-F Alliance on another, what I need is another enemy" checks out.
13 Feb 19 UTC Why did I not take help from Turkish units in 1912 to hold the line?

To setup a line we needed 10 units. I had 9 thanks to Italy persistently attacking Trieste, but hey he needed it too, so *shrug*. Anyway I had just taken Berlin and felt I had a good chance to defend Scandinavia. Right then, having you move so many Turkish units to my border at once seemed like overkill in terms of “help”. My assessment was that you were getting in a position to help if needed, but also putting yourself in a good place to get Warsaw/Mos and set up a line with me off the board if things went well enough against France. Cause once I set up the line in Boh, Sil, Ber, Bal, Den, Ska, Nor, etc I’m at your mercy in my southern lands and you would benefit immensely from splitting me up between you and France.

In Spring 1912 my units were all out against France at that point and what I really wanted from Turkey in Autumn 1912 was something like Rum to Gal (you did this), Bla to Rum (fine), Bul hold (Yay!) and Sev to Arm (Great!).
13 Feb 19 UTC Hey, shield. You were in an almost perfect duo with Turkey till the point you didn't support him to TRI.
13 Feb 19 UTC At the end of the day, I think the best summary is in Fall 1907 when I looked at all the options they all seemed risky. Usually I feel like I have at least 1-2 paths that are relatively safe or straightforward. In this position not so much.
I don’t see a better stab from the 1907 position. Sure I could do Rum to Bul, but then the attack on Trieste fails, so I still only take the same number of centers. Bulgaria would have no support and immediately be dislodged. Worse, Ser (S) Trieste and Aeg to Bul means I stab and get nothing. No way I was going after Bul.
So let’s stay we stay allies in 1907 instead of me stabbing you. Where do my gains come from? Certainly not England, he was too evenly matched. Not Germany, I needed him to hold off England (and to a lesser degree, France). You’ve cut me off from Italy. I’m stagnate for the foreseeable future while you continue growing into Italy and beyond. That’s very risky for my longevity.
You’re right that there wasn’t really an alternative fleet/army ratio choice you made that would have made a difference. It was more about what centers we each owned, my lack of growth chances, your opportunity for growth, where our units were, what future builds were likely to be, and once you get those future builds what would you likely do with them. The only reasonable gains I could have made were against Germany (maybe), and then what… I have to become the front line against France while leaving my backside exposed? Might be a good move. Or might open a chance for Turkey having just taken Rome, Tunis, and Naples to build some armies and take my centers.
In terms of gaining another enemy while fighting EF, was also a very good chance based on the way the board was shaping up that you might try to stab me sooner or later anyway. It seemed at the time you wanted to be allies, but I wasn’t so sure that by 1909/1910 you would feel the same way with Rome, Naples, and possibly Tunis under your belt. Even if you do I just sit on my centers and hold a line for 10 years? Zzzz. So in fall 1907 I decided that was the last chance I would have to stab you if ever I was going to. After that I would remain in an alliance exclusively at your discretion that you could choose to terminate in your favor at any time. Losing that agency was very worrisome. In my estimation (perhaps incorrectly in retrospect), if Italy had joined a fight against Turkey even with 1-2 units, it would have made a big difference and given us an upper hand taking out Turkey. In any case, Italy did something else.
13 Feb 19 UTC I'd be curious what you experienced guys think. I'm not the expert many of you are.
13 Feb 19 UTC GG for all. Tunis was a mistake.
13 Feb 19 UTC Russia, I joined the fight against Turkey. I didn't take Trie when you emptyed it and only move there to bounce Turkey off. But then it became obvious France will try for a solo and that Tunis is the key and I that I need to work with Turkey.
But France moved back in 1912 and Turkey moved to Nap and In feared he might try to eliminate me and did some bad moves.
13 Feb 19 UTC Well done Jose.

I have been glued the whole game in the war against Russia. I think Russia made a strategical mistake in investing some many *fleets* in the war because in this situation he had no other option but to go on against me and I had not other choice but to fight him whereas he was still outnumbered on the sea : not enough fleets to pas through ; to many so that I can ignore him.

Situation was wonderful for France who perfectly managed it. I think we had already lost when I decided (with despair) to shot before he shots...

My guess is that without Russia stabbing Turkey but in going on the collaboration, we would have achieved a D4. But that's just a guess.
13 Feb 19 UTC @Italy, my one move to Naples was to ensure a French bounce. It was a big risk, and luckily you kept the spot. I was doing everything I could to keep you and your units on the front line (see: all the auto-bounces into Trieste). I wasn't sure the message was getting through and welcome feedback as to how I could have telegraphed it better.
13 Feb 19 UTC Turkey, I understood the message, but I did some silly mistakes that I regret. I should have never allowed France into Tys Sea. But I felt I was short one unit to set a stalemate and supported you there in Fall 14. Big mistake that costed the game.
16 Feb 19 UTC Mike I'm inclined to agree somewhat on the north. I thought at one point with your position/units I had a chance to pick up all scandanavia with some lucky guesses, but you know the results.

I'd guess D3 EFT more likely than D4 if Turkey was playing to maximize SoS results. Just a guess of course.
16 Feb 19 UTC The new game only got 6. I set up another.

https://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=236357
16 Feb 19 UTC I'm not sure I mentioned it, but I put my draw flag up in Fall 01 and left it up.
I'd join the new game, but I'm going to be traveling for about 11 days in March.

Start Backward Open large map Forward End

France
josemurc (25590 D)
Won. Bet: 150 D, won: 1050 D
18 supply-centers, 17 units
Turkey
missingumlaut (237 D)
Survived. Bet: 150 D
7 supply-centers, 7 units
Russia
shield (2619 D)
Survived. Bet: 150 D
5 supply-centers, 5 units
Italy
rdrivera2005 (3058 D (G))
Survived. Bet: 150 D
4 supply-centers, 4 units
England
CptMike (3534 D)
Defeated. Bet: 150 D
Germany
curupira (3096 D)
Defeated. Bet: 150 D
Austria
SplitDiplomat (100560 D)
Defeated. Bet: 150 D
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