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Finished: 03 PM Mon 12 Nov 18 UTC
Private (G)underball
1 days, 12 hours /phase
Pot: 175 D - Autumn, 1915, Finished
Classic, No messaging, Anonymous players, Draw-Size Scoring
1 excused missed turn
Game won by swordsman3003 (12662 D (G))
12 Nov 18 UTC Tough game endgame for the defense. It’s pretty damn hard to do something about it when I get to play France.

The problem at the end here was that the last alliance needed to get its act together and stalemate me at Munich or Berlin once I had Tunis. All the other northern centers, such as all the English acquisitions, I was eventually going to get no matter what. Only Munich and Berlin are defensible in the long run, and they need to be heavily fortified.

Eg All my messing around to attack Italian home centers was REALLY about trying to have an army in piedmont at the perfect turn to allow me to take Munich by poking tyrolia.

Russia needed to give up on aggression MUCH earlier and Turkey probably needed to let Russia keep Ankara in 1913 (I’m not 100% sure that this center mattered but I don’t think it helped)

Sorry to Austria. I harassed you in order to either make turkey or Russia supper powerful or lure Italy to attack someone else. The hope was to buy myself time if any of those come true, and it did work.

Dang though. I really encourage everyone to study what had to happen for me to get out of a very bad strategic situation as France. Look at the map in 1903 spring and 1903 fall. I was definitely at war with England, Germany, and Italy at the same time. That does NOT look like a position for French victory in 1915. But I kicked austria in the shins, turtled as hard as possible, and waited for someone to give up attacking (either to attack each other or because another for appeared)

France is just so inherently powerful because of how easy it is to break defensive lines in the north. I think I was a solo win threat in spring 1910 when I flipped my fleets backwards and was for sure going to conquer Tunis the next turn. It was extrmely advantageous to me that my solo win attempt took place during Russia’s solo win attempt.

I’ll have more to say later.
12 Nov 18 UTC I was thrilled to ally Russia, nervous that my slow progress (I was a bit too conservative) would become tiresome, still pretty pissed when the knife I feared came, and bitter when it was clear we would need to form a stalemate line with France but without having eliminated Italy and, at the time, England. Taking Ankara was carefully calculated to give Russia the bare minimum necessary to try and stalemate you; I thought it was pretty razor's edge whether it would ultimately bite me, but I harbored a deep grudge for the betrayal earlier and wanted Russia to sweat it out.
12 Nov 18 UTC I will say that I overextended massively (something I seem to have a repeated problem wiith). When I wasn't able to secure a good position for a stalemate, I did my best to assist France toward a victory as either a way to get Russia to back off or get them the same loss they gave me.
12 Nov 18 UTC Ha, Yeah If I could have out guessed you one more time I think you would have had to give that guy up. All down hill for me after that.
12 Nov 18 UTC Sorry I kicked you in the shins; it’s hard enough to be Austria normally. Usually that’s a crazy move to attack Austria as France.....but I was trying to turbo charge Russia and/or turkey, or lure Italy to attack you, to get the pressure off of me.
13 Nov 18 UTC Sorry, Turkey, the original "stab," a tap of Serbia in Fall 07, was originally an attempt to keep Austria from retreating into either Vienna or Budapest. That was why I didn't move simultaneously to Bulgaria. I realized there was no way I could expect you to not take it as a stab so I built in Sev and continued the attack.
13 Nov 18 UTC At what point should I have backed off? I think it was ~1911 when you were at 12 centers when I realized I had no chance to catch you. Should it have been earlier?
13 Nov 18 UTC One last question: if you get to Piedmont, it appears impossible to defend Munich and Berlin. Units are needed from Piedmont to Livonia/moscow to form the stalemate line? And, it appears, Piedmont and Livonia are critical to holding those two centers, and once one falls so does the other, if I'm understanding this correctly...
13 Nov 18 UTC Livonia is needed to hold Berlin without Munich.
Prussia and Silesia can hold Berlin against a northern attack, but only if Prussia is protected from being poked by a unit in Livonia.

This makes Berlin alone a difficult center to hold, because Silesia Prussia and Livonia are, none of them, supply centers and you don’t normally have a lot of armies in that area as a southern power.
Furthermore, Silesia has to be protected against a poke from Bohemia (not so bad just pointing it out)

Munich is usually the easier one to take and hold from the south. But that’s just because there are usually enough armies around.
armies Are needed in tyrolia Bohemia and Silesia, and eventually Silesia and tyrolia need to be protected against any poke from piedmont or Prussia.

If you control BOTH Munich and Berlin from the south, the stalemate line is:
Prussia (to support hold Munich) and Livonia (so Prussia can’t be poked) OR Silesia (to support hold Munich) and Prussia (so Silesia can’t be poked) and an army to support hold Prussia
Then
Armies in 2/3 of Silesia Bohemia and tyrolia. But if you use tyrolia then you also need to guard piedmont against being poked and if you use Bohemia you need an army in tyrolia or maybe piedmont to stop Bohemia from being poked.

So you COULd get away with:
Munich and Berlin
Prussia support hold Berlin
Livonia
Warsaw support hold Livonia
Silesia support hold Munich
Bohemia support hold Munich
Tyrolia

That requires 8 armies in a proper position, not to mention Moscow (9) plus some defense of Italy probably.

So it’s really hard to make a line that includes Munich and/or Berlin from the south unless you have TOTAL cooperation or a single power setting up the line. The number of units in loved is just too many.

By comparison, Tunis is easy to hold with 3 fleets and is stalemated with 4 usually.
Moscow can be held from the north with just 4 units (moscow, StP, Livonia, Prussia).

The solo win plan for northern powers (France Germany England) is much easier to achieve than a southern solo win plan. That’s my opinion. France has the biggest advantage of all.
13 Nov 18 UTC So it sounds like it's more important to keep the Northern power out of Tunis/Marseilles than Munich/Berlin, in terms of being able to defend. Conversely, as a Northern power, take and hold the Med and you are in the driver's seat. Does that sum it up?
13 Nov 18 UTC In general, what you are saying is true. For England or france, control of Tunis means a fair shot at a solo win. Germany will probably never reach Tunis, but can easily get Warsaw and Moscow, and so the battle is fought over Portugal/Spain/Marseilles or sometimes Vienna.

In this particular game, once I had Tunis, the southern powers needed to throw EVERYTHING into defending Munich or Berlin. Anything less than a perfect defense would result in my solo win, which it did because I know precisely how to grind those both back for the north (by getting control of piedmont, attacking Berlin with an army, then moving Berlin into Munich and taking Berlin back later)

So a related takeaway you can learn from this game also you all should learn how I did this tactically. That’s the difference between a draw and a solo win as France.

Also please note that France has a greater ability than england to force Munich and Berlin due to the ease with which France can fight in the Med. England however has a far better chance of take Moscow or Warsaw.
13 Nov 18 UTC So with my analysis of the stalemate line needed to form as Munich and/or Berlin, you can see what I was saying Kevin that taking an army from Russia (for you to have another fleet) might have actually put Russia below the number needed to form a line. For example, if Warsaw or Moscow was a place that the defending alliance needed an army at in order to hold the line, you would NOT be able to help Russia out by putting one of your armies there; doing so would force Russia to disband one of the other needed armies. I think Russia needed 7 armies and 8 would have been better.
13 Nov 18 UTC Good game my friend! I’ll look forward to some new games after my surgery, God willing!
14 Nov 18 UTC Good luck with your surgery. I hope all goes well!
08 Dec 18 UTC A new game if anyone wants to join

http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=232766
20 Dec 18 UTC New game, let me know if you join:
http://webdiplomacy.net/board.php?gameID=233405
20 Dec 18 UTC Joined

Start Backward Open large map Forward End

France
swordsman3003 (12662 D (G))
Won. Bet: 25 D, won: 175 D
18 supply-centers, 17 units
Turkey
kbchitown (100 D)
Survived. Bet: 25 D
7 supply-centers, 7 units
Russia
DaddyO (233 D)
Survived. Bet: 25 D
6 supply-centers, 6 units
Italy
sweetwatersam (7999 D)
Survived. Bet: 25 D
3 supply-centers, 3 units
England
Tanase (100 D)
Defeated. Bet: 25 D
Germany
Verseven (100 D)
Defeated. Bet: 25 D
Austria
CogZilla (204 D)
Defeated. Bet: 25 D
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