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Finished: 03 PM Mon 15 Oct 18 UTC
Private Me and you, make We
1 days /phase
Pot: 182 D - Autumn, 1917, Finished
Classic, No messaging, Anonymous players, Draw-Size Scoring, Hidden draw votes
1 excused missed turn
Game won by swordsman3003 (12662 D (G))
05 Oct 18 UTC Spring, 1914: Moderator: (jmo1121109): Paused till Monday for wdc
09 Oct 18 UTC Spring, 1914: Moderator: (ghug): Unpaused
14 Oct 18 UTC Christ! Congratulations Swordsman. Sorry everyone else. Something I missed led to the win.
14 Oct 18 UTC Durga, nice job hanging around for so long. In this gunboat case, if an Italy is uncooperative around Greece/Aegean, then how does Austria break that Constantinople junction? Fleet in Greece>Aegean and A Bulgaria?
14 Oct 18 UTC Doesn't matter. You and Russia completely failed at holding what should have been easy to hold
14 Oct 18 UTC This game would have been so different if I didn't nmr at a critical point. That last minute attempt to eliminate me instead of rushing to the line was so incredibly infuriating
14 Oct 18 UTC Warlegend. You’re early greed was your demise. You should have worked with me.
14 Oct 18 UTC Russia's late game moveset was beyond baffling. Good job swordsman
14 Oct 18 UTC I didn't appreciate being ganged up on.
14 Oct 18 UTC Well, you are a mod :)
14 Oct 18 UTC Gg all. Congrats swordsman
14 Oct 18 UTC Curirpia what compelled you to start throwing the game to Italy starting spring 1916.
14 Oct 18 UTC Actually the issues definitely started 1915
14 Oct 18 UTC Ssorenn my early greed was definitely my demise but I don’t think my problem was in attacking you.

I just need to work on my gunboat midgame
14 Oct 18 UTC Kind of spazzed out after France was gone..
14 Oct 18 UTC "You and Russia completely failed at holding what should have been easy to hold" Durga, care to enlighten me? I would definitely love to have you explain what you would have done differently.
14 Oct 18 UTC I often have that problem.. People throw everything at me until I'm eliminated and then they just spazz out; NMR or throw a solo.. My karma must be atrocious. I either need to stop strangling puppies, or up the tempo.
14 Oct 18 UTC You weren't so bad Austria, but Russia gave up so many centers for no reason. And you lost Munich for no good reason either.
14 Oct 18 UTC Warlegend, i Agree that a war against England was not really your problem. I think your 1905 attack against me while England still had all 3 of his home centers was very ill timed. Not only was it greedy and ineffectual, it made you appear as though you were attempting to solo.it also caused me to attack the crap out of you, instead of helping you to attack England or attacking England together with you, which is what I would have done if you had left me well enough alone. By attacking both me and England, you allowed a truce to form between powers that should have been enemies. This eventually set me up to take both your centers and England’s, since England had to prioritize fighting you. I also suspect that the appearances of greed and a solo win attempt that I am referring to encouraged Austria and Russia to attack you as well, especially after my retaliation succeeded tactically and you started looking overstretched.

Endgame:

I started feeling like I had a chance at a solo win around autumn 1910. I had a very strong defensible position in the north, and a good chance of cleaning up the English centers before Russia could get them. I knew that if I got all the English centers, something crazy would have to happen to prevent me from winning, like Austria ceding a bunch of centers to Russia or turkey to allow them to build fleets. I also had a really strong ability to defend against turkey.

I think Austria’s static, defensive play of just doing support holds was a big factor in my ability to solo, because I was able to freely relocate my units that had rather awkward positioning. Eg look at what I did in spring 1911.

Once I captured the English home centers in autumn 1912, I knew the game was mine to lose.

In order to break through my very light defenses around my home centers, austria and turkey would, together, have to acquire more fleet builds, get the fleets into position, and support each other on an attack to take Ionian. Given the austria and turkey appeared to be at war, that seems really unlikely. Not only that, but they would have to do it faster than I could acquire more fleet builds by capturing even 1 more center (not impossible but still difficult because Russia did not have sufficient fleets to form a stalemate line)

Most of the Russian armies, several of the Austrian armies, and both Turkish armies were useless in foiling my solo win plan, which did not involve capturing any centers defensible with armies. I did not need to capture any centers controlled by Austria or turkey to solo win - just Denmark, Norway, Sweden and STP.

I purposely allowed Russian fleets behind my lines without letting them capture any centers, with the plan (which succeeded) of surrounding and destroying the fleets so that any defense of the north would become impossible. I believe that 4 fleets are needed to stalemate the position that Russia and Austria carved out, or maybe 5. I haven’t thought about it for a long time. But I knew that 3 was probably not enough and definitely not 2 or less. So I think austria needed to cede centers to Russia to get more fleet builds fast. I also think Russia should have stopped attacking me, because it greatly lowered the chances that he would have fleets In the positions needed to stalemate me.

I correctly anticipated that I would destroy Russia’s fleet at Picardy in autumn 1914 and also block St. Petersburg to prevent any rebuild. So at that point, I believe I had a 95% chance of winning if I played flawlessly. The only way to be stopped at that point was for austria and turkey to take Ionian before I got any more builds and I was set up to get more builds quickly. If you look carefully I did not move WMS in autumn 1914 in case turkey got a build from Russia or Austria and I needed to add 1 more fleet to hold IOn.

Once I saw the autumn 1914 builds, I was 100% certain that I would win. War between Russia and turkey, instead of cooperation, raised my already extremely high chance of winning to a certainty. Nothing in the north was defensible and I needed only a few builds to completely stalemate Ionian.

Great game, and it was a pretty fun to go all-out west as italy In gunboat, something I recall doing only maybe once before in my life. Great alliance Hamilton. It was really cool of you to attack Germany.
14 Oct 18 UTC Yeah I was shook when I saw fleet sev build
14 Oct 18 UTC "I think Austria’s static, defensive play of just doing support holds was a big factor in my ability to solo, " I'll definitely concede that, BUT I need to look back and see if I can find anything that I might be able to point to and say, "I should have guessed differently there."

I will also concede it was bad form on my part to make that last move against Turkey. I had a draw flag up already, resigned to the fact that it would be 4 instead of 3. Once Russia moved against Turkey, I brain-farted, got greedy, and tried one last time.

Swordsman, I can't tell if you were being sarcastic, but I think the only thing our alliance lacked was you getting into a position to take Turkish centres. I don't know if that was by design, or just what was dealt to you by England/Germany.
14 Oct 18 UTC Sorry for not being more clear, but I am among the least sarcastic people you will ever encounter. I thought our alliance was great and you did a good job, and your decision to attack Germany was a good move and insightful. That’s what you have to do eventually when allied to Russia and or Italy, so that was the time to strike.

By working together, We actually did get into position to wipe our turkey when you supported me into con (clever read) in spring 1908. I had to retreat into Black Sea, but from there we wold have eventually cracked turkey. You were playing the alliance just fine. I deliberately disbanded my fleet and stopped attacking turkey because I wanted to keep open my solo win chances and did not want to extend more units against turkey when I knew I needed to send more units into the north if I wanted to take the English home centers. You were doing the right thing and I was just not ready to attack turkey when I wondered if I could expand north. Keeping turkey alive increased my chances of a solo win (due to locking up units) and allowed me to commit more units West and north by just minimally defending against turkey instead of attacking.

What you needed, I think, was a much earlier attack upon turkey by Russia, but Russia wasn’t into that at that time.
14 Oct 18 UTC Spring 1904 was a good time for us when Turkey made the move to Armenia (great convoy, btw). I saw that and thought, "Awesome, we're going to really get somewhere now."
14 Oct 18 UTC "I wanted to keep open my solo win chances and did not want to extend more units against turkey when I knew I needed to send more units into the north if I wanted to take the English home centers. "

That's that long-vision insight I still need to work on. It's hard to consider the immediate opportunities compared to the long-term benefits that might never materialize.
14 Oct 18 UTC My understanding of the game. I have already anticipated the chances of a Italian solo by 1912 and saw the need of building fleets in the North.

1912, Autumn. I suported hold RUM and tried to take KIE, hoping Austria would see the APPARENTLY contradictory orders and understand the game the same way of me, but it didn't work.

1913, Spring and Autumn. I supported move ARM-SEV, trying to destroy an army, retake SEV, and build a fleet in the North.

1914, Spring and Autumn. I supported move RUM-SEV, trying to destroy an army, retake SEV, and build a fleet in the North.

1915. I realized both AUS and TUR didn't read my past orders or didn't understand it,. I had a build, but STP was not available (my mistake), then I desesperately tried another strategy, which was build a fleet SEV and tried to cooperate with Austria to try have some Turkish SC in order to build fleets in the North. It didn't work.

1916/17. No more chances. Italy would eventually win, given the lack of coordination between AUS, RUS, TUR.
14 Oct 18 UTC ......
14 Oct 18 UTC I would like to hear from Austria, why he didn't support move AEG-ION in 1912/13/14, and why he didn't support move BLA-CON in Autumn 1915.
14 Oct 18 UTC This is one of the more interesting post-Mortems of any games i have played recently
14 Oct 18 UTC I’m planning another one. It’s in forum. Sign up if you like
14 Oct 18 UTC Not sure about the Aeg-Ion moves, I'll have to look back but Bla-Con was simply the misstep and thinking I'd get something forward quicker. Simple miscalculation.
14 Oct 18 UTC "1912, Autumn. I suported hold RUM and tried to take KIE, hoping Austria would see the APPARENTLY contradictory orders and understand the game the same way of me, but it didn't work."

Tell me more about this. It was contradictory but it also wasn't a signal that made sense to me at the time.
14 Oct 18 UTC By Autumn, 1911, Italy built had three fleets in Med and was not helping you to go against Turkey. He had four fleets in the North, enough to take all England and win over my three fleets, going to take all Skandiniavia, what would eventually lead to his victory.

That's is enough to see the need of coordination by the other three players. Surely, it was not plain view, but what motivation could I have to take KIE from you other than that?
14 Oct 18 UTC Congratulations swordsman. A perfect game.
14 Oct 18 UTC Lol. Definitely not a perfect game. You guys should have absolutely been able to stop him
14 Oct 18 UTC No. You should have been able to stop them.

curupira, thanks for the explanation. Obviously, I need to do a stronger job of counting units all around the board. I would say I am still a novice enough player to take the attempt at one of my centres with a "WTF!"

I'll be the goat, though. I look good in horns.
15 Oct 18 UTC So I learned a lot about how to read the board due to how strong France is. If France controlled all the Italian home centers with no threat of losing them, Belgium and Holland, and England and Germany were in tatters, and had multiple fleets in the north, I would definitely know France can solo win because now France doesn’t even need Munich or Berlin to win. When France controls the Italian home centers...that is like doomsday in many games. Look how I was able to hold down all the Austrian and Russian forces with such a tiny number of armies to to my army in Ruhr. I made moves on several turns that were uncounterable, tactically, because I was poking everything that might make a support move. Look at my spring 1914 poking moves for an example of what I’m saying. I learned how to do that exact configuration in all these games I’ve won as France or lost to a French solo.

So this game, I understood what I had to do after I hollowed out France and became fake France: reproduce the French solo win situation by getting my fleets into the north to conquer England ASAP (France would have done it faster of course), and then get into positions that can’t be passed through while I get into a winning posture.

The board resembles a French solo win much more than an Italian one.

France and England have this ability to swing a gate shut in the north once they control a winning position in the south because it’s extrmely difficult to set up a stalemate line that incorporates Kiel and Scandinavia. Such was the case here, just that it was weirdly Italy as the one doing it.
15 Oct 18 UTC That's a hell of a perspective, and one I hadn't considered. Become fake France. I like that a lot. And it worked for you since you had all of France, plus your centres. Interesting.
15 Oct 18 UTC Hamilton, I have only expressed my reasoning and understanding of the game. Try to exchange information in gunboat games is very difficult. I didn't blame anyone for the final outcome.

BTW, as I don't know you in person, I will take your words about your looking for true.
15 Oct 18 UTC Curupira, one of the key lessons 2ndWhiteLine pushed on me was to read orders after every turn. I pretty much try to make sure I do that, especially when things don't "look right.
15 Oct 18 UTC that's really good! keep that up
15 Oct 18 UTC Why didn't you ordered RUM SEV?
15 Oct 18 UTC Usually the east wouldn't just let you become France though. The board was lucky for you.
15 Oct 18 UTC Curupira, I didn’t want you losing a Centre in my behalf.
15 Oct 18 UTC I could play gunboat for 5 years more and not achieve another solo win as Italy solely by expanding westward. its absolutely a freak show

Start Backward Open large map Forward End

Italy
swordsman3003 (12662 D (G))
Won. Bet: 26 D, won: 182 D
19 supply-centers, 16 units
Austria
Survived. Bet: 26 D
8 supply-centers, 7 units
Turkey
Durga (1912 D Mod)
Survived. Bet: 26 D
4 supply-centers, 4 units
Russia
curupira (2887 D)
Survived. Bet: 26 D
3 supply-centers, 5 units
England
ssorenn (2442 D (G))
Defeated. Bet: 26 D
France
Claesar (2746 D Mod)
Defeated. Bet: 26 D
Germany
WarLegend (598 D)
Defeated. Bet: 26 D
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