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Finished: 10 PM Mon 08 Oct 18 UTC
Featured Gunboat-782
1 days /phase (normal)
Pot: 777 D - Autumn, 1921, Finished
No in-game messaging, Anonymous players, Draw-Size Scoring, Hidden draw votes
Game won by swordsman3003 (12662 D (G))
07 Oct 18 UTC France: I abandoned the German front to arrive exactly where we arrived at. I made myself essential in holding the lines against a German solo. Turkey had proven over and over again, that he would never back off of Austria and me, every chance he got he attacked. I made clear moves and indicators that I would rather give the game to Germany than give Turkey a single SC, and yet he kept attacking, even after I had disbanded Warsaw and Moscow, he could have ordered an all support hold, yet he didn't, the took Rumania. Turkey had ample chances to just back away, yet he never did, so I set up Germany to "Almost solo" to make myself essential in stopping it.

Had I held the German lines, then it was clear that Turkey would have just conquered me and Austria, then he would have held the German lines after Russia and Austria were dead.

If Turkey had just backed off completely and moved all his forces totally away from Me, then I would have turned to face Germany, and we would have never reached this point, but Turkey never did this.
07 Oct 18 UTC I see. I was not watching the action in the east as closely, but that makes sense.
07 Oct 18 UTC incidentally, normally the best way for Turkey to stop a western solo is to move all forces towards Syria, even giving Austria and Russia SC in the process, just go back into the corner and wait, garrison con and Armenia and do nothing. fighting Austria and Russia endlessly, does not help Austria and Russia stop a western solo. Obviously turkey may not agree with me, but here we are, at game end, with a western solo, a needlessly strong turkey and a weakened Austria and Russia that might have been able to stop Germany much earlier , had they been giving the chance.
08 Oct 18 UTC Good game. Sound strategy Tugster and you played it well. The tough thing about self-sacrifice like that is you depend on others to do the right thing.

Sahleao, I think you could have played for a smaller draw without risking a loss. You could have not hinted at any desire to play for a smaller draw unless I backed up further from the stalemate line and ceded some of my centers. That’s worked in many games I’ve played in and it happens often. Tugster and I recently finished a game where we played until like 1929 to whittle down the draw from 4 to 3.

In fact, if Italy had not taken Marseilles, my next move was going to be to cede Sevastopol to Turkey to encourage a smaller draw.

But I’m going to take a solo win if it’s offered to me.

And, hey, by the way I think I was getting kind of close to taking the solo win honestly! I could have played better to get Marseilles or Vienna but I guessed poorly.
08 Oct 18 UTC if turkey takes sev, I instantly take Trieste and start cutting support, in the interior of Austria. The biggest problem was the stubborn refusal of Turkey to pull back, much earlier.
08 Oct 18 UTC Maybe so. I might have had better chances than I realized. I was prepared to cede Sevastopol.
08 Oct 18 UTC very nicely done Swordsman!
08 Oct 18 UTC Congrats Swordsman, very nicely done! Even with the outcome, I really enjoyed this one, I had a nice me vs. A/I/R battle that lasted for several years, it was fun trying to predict how each move would shape up, some good back-and-forth on my end of the map.
As for Russia's comments, I am given a reminder of how two people can see the same things so differently. I feel like the stretch from 1908-1913 was a fairly constant series of moves where I was defending Ser/Rum/Bul/Ank from being taken from me, I don't view those moves as attacking anyone. Once Russia made it clear that he was dumping to north to Germany, of course I wanted to take over and solidify Rum/Sev, I don't think there were other reasonable options at that point.
08 Oct 18 UTC yes, it also goes to show that you can never let turkey get to 6 SC, with his built in + 2 makes it 8. At one point, 11, yes ELEVEN, allied Italian/Austrian/Russian units could not beat him with his 6 in the corner.
08 Oct 18 UTC Germany: I always try to learn from well-played games like this one. Since we were obviously adversaries throughout the entire game, I'm wondering if you noticed any mistakes I might have made that made things easier for you.

From my perspective, I was on the defensive from the moment England was completely under your control and my defense became weaker as you took on more and more of Russia's former SCs. I don't think there was much I could have done to avoid the outcome. But I'm wondering if I missed something.
08 Oct 18 UTC Going back to 1901, I think this game demonstrates the truth of my belief that Germany must allow Russia into Sweden in 1901 unless England opens to English Channel. Only tight play by me and Russia overcame French-English cooperation.

And later on, Germany is more powerful than northern Russia. I was able to fight both France and Russia for quite a while (before Russia backed down) and eventually gained the upper hand tactically in a few places.

I think it is very common in a strong game for Germany to ally Russia in 1901 against England and later win a fight vs Russia when England has been eliminated.

England is my preferred ally as Germany, but far too often the English player wants to attack Russia first instead of France. That spells extreme danger for Germany because either England will likely get too strong and attack Germany right away, die to French attacks due to lacking defense, or both.

German Alliance with Russia is far preferable to England invading Russia in 1902 without ever having attacked France.
08 Oct 18 UTC France, fleet Marseilles early on is a large error, messing with Italy early just distracts you and him away from more important things. Italy should be attacked for the win, much later, earlier, you need to kill England first. You can do it via direct attack or perhaps start safely and shift when he is committed east, but all of your back and forth fleets moves near Italy hurt you. Letting Italy into MAO was a very serious game ending error for you as well. When he went rogue and captured Liverpool England died, and Germany got it all, which is why Germany beat you. Don't mess with Italy at all early in the game unless he comes for you first, which he should not, but you started it with fleet Marseilles.
08 Oct 18 UTC Russia: Thanks for pointing that out. Looking back over the moves, I can see you are correct.
I never had any intention of attacking Italy, and my thinking in building the fleet was that it would help me better protect Spain and Marseilles from Italy. In hindsight, that was not necessary, and likely provoked Italy to boot.
08 Oct 18 UTC other people do not know your intentions, but they see your moves, so it's your moves and actions that announce your intentions. Every move, every build, in gunboat is a diplomatic message.

A spring fleet build in Marseilles in 1901 states very loudly to Italy:

ITALY! I am going to attack you!!

That's what it says. And he reacted.

Fleet Brest is more neutral, as it means maybe you will attack England, but it can also be used against Germany, so Brest is the more neutral choice. Marseilles sends a very strong negative message to Italy.
08 Oct 18 UTC And then you moved it to GOL, which was an aggressive declaration of war against Italy. Had you moved your army to Gascony and your fleet to Spain directly, Italy might have thought, well okay, he changed his mind, good. But GOL combined with your army to Marseilles was a declaration of war on Italy.
08 Oct 18 UTC Russia: As you might have guessed, I don't play gunboat often. I'm generally able to rely on my ability to communicate my intentions and plans to other players. So, I acknowledge that I am not always as alert to the signal that a particular move or build may send. That is why I'm seeking out high level gunboats, so I get better at this sort of thing.
08 Oct 18 UTC Every single thing you do sends a message in gunboat. First consider your tactics, next consider the message it sends. Sometimes, you have to make alternative tactics to better communicate your message or to avoid it from being misinterpreted.
08 Oct 18 UTC Italy was trying to fight turkey, he said this a couple of times, but then you just came back into GOL yet again, at which point, Italy threw up his hands in exasperation and said screw it, if France wont' leave me alone, I'm going to mess up his game big time and what looked like a terribly weird thing to do, to sail all the way to Liverpool, he really hosed you with it, not sure he did it with that directly in mind, but it ended your game, and certainly finally got you off of his back, so he could face Turkey like he had been trying to do all game. Notice that he never pressed a serious attack on you, all Italy wanted from the get go, was for France to leave him alone.
08 Oct 18 UTC all of this may even have influenced his later decision to cut you out of the draw. That I cannot say, but people tend to be influenced emotionally by earlier things in the game, either directly or subconsciously.

I'll stop, good game all!
08 Oct 18 UTC Tugster I just love your post-game insights they're all very educational and extremely accurate. I really enjoy playing with you for that reason. I also noticed that you and I are able to communicate fairly well in gunboat games, and I think that is because we think about the tactics very similarly (always considering the message sent by the orders)

Just for posterity, if you hadn't attacked me the turn England went down, I was prepared to stay allied to you for a while longer. Maybe that would have been to your detriment anyways since you probably needed to keep me down after England was eliminated. But just saying, that's what I was thinking to myself at the time, that maybe I could play the game out to a draw with Russia and Turkey.
swordsman3003 (12662 D (G))
Won. Bet: 111 D, won: 777 D
18 supply-centers, 16 units
sahleao (1012 D)
Survived. Bet: 111 D
6 supply-centers, 6 units
genghiz (8887 D)
Survived. Bet: 111 D
6 supply-centers, 6 units
sweetwatersam (8180 D)
Survived. Bet: 111 D
2 supply-centers, 2 units
sideroxylon1 (551 D)
Survived. Bet: 111 D
1 supply-centers, 1 units
Tugster (6558 D)
Survived. Bet: 111 D
1 supply-centers, 1 units
WarLegend (325 D)
Defeated. Bet: 111 D
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