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Finished: 07 Sep 18 UTC
Featured Gunboat-779
1 days /phase (normal)
Pot: 777 D - Autumn, 1912, Finished
No in-game messaging, Anonymous players, Draw-Size Scoring, Hidden draw votes
Game drawn
08 Aug 18 UTC Autumn, 1901: Moderator: (Claesar): Germany will enter orders from now on. Have fun all!
08 Sep 18 UTC Good game all. It got pretty Shaky there at the end, I was sure Germany was going to throw it to turkey for absolutely no reason for a minute there, but I'm glad we managed to sort it out. Glad to work with you Germany.

Good game turkey. Not sure what was going on with austria

Italy, good game. Sorry you got so unlucky with that I'll conceived backstab
08 Sep 18 UTC i still had finland
08 Sep 18 UTC GG all
08 Sep 18 UTC It had nothing to do with bad luck, i was provoked to my breaking point. and it wasn't a backstab, it was a suicide on Italy after he refused for years to help me then he moved to attack me, which destroyed my position, and so I responded.

I got so sick of reading: "The fleet at Ionian Sea holds" for turns and turns and turns, when I really needed some help... So many times I needed something else, anything else... like...

support Greece to hold
Cut Aegean Sea
or move to East med..

but no... the fleet Ionian Sea holds...

the fleet Ionian Sea holds...

the fleet Ionian Sea holds...

the fleet Ionian Sea holds...

the fleet Ionian Sea holds...

And I was fighting for my life. The first time Italy even paid attention to the east was the fake attack on me, which drew me out of position, and at that point, I was certain to lose and be outguessed by turkey, so I said fuck it, and made sure Italy went down with me.

Italy.. NEVER write a hold order.. at the very least support Greece to hold..
08 Sep 18 UTC hey fair enough. i guess i wasnt paying close enough attention.
08 Sep 18 UTC Yea I fucked up after one build phase by not having a single unit covering Venice. So I had to move east, and I understand from there on things with Austria turned bad.
I didnt support Greece because I prefered Turkey eliminating Austria instead of the other way arround. If Austria thinks thats worth him taking me down with him, thats only his point of view.
08 Sep 18 UTC Generally speaking, Austrian players will suicide-attack Italy if Italy doesn’t leave them alone or help vs turkey. That’s because the Austrian home centers are not defensible in a long game. But the Italian ones sometimes are.

So get used to Austrian players doing that to you if that’s how you play Italy. It’s not just one persons opinion. That is the dominant meta game of gunboat diplomacy and that is unlikely to ever change.

I see Austria do that in nearly every gunboat game I play where Italy attacks or even just lets Austria get attacked by turkey. I also do it myself, and sometimes get into draws that way as Austria. The only way Austria can get into a draw is to throw to turkey and force the game to an end, and even if turkey solo wins, that’s preferable to Italy getting a draw at your expense.

As Italy I never ever EVER help turkey attack Austria....that’s really bad play. Turkey can become unbeatable really fast and Austria can be counted on to suicde into your centers because Austria cannot be defended against a strong Turkey.

Learn from this experience. You followed a weak strategy and faced the consequences. It will happen again and again to you if you don’t learn.
08 Sep 18 UTC Okay, Italy...

In that situation you had no no need to cover Venice at all, no sane Austria would ever attack Italy with Turkey at 6 SC pressing my east. You had no need to cover Venice, so your move towards me was perceived as an attack.

But bigger picture...

from 1901 to 1904, you wrote: "the fleet at Ionian Sea holds" repeatedly. You never once helped me, and I was fighting for my life against Turkey, counter attacking, trying to outguess him, etc. I needed just a little help from Ionian sea desperately, yet, it never came.

in gunboat, orders send messages. Your writing that hold order over and over again sent me the message, "I don't give a shit about Austria" loud and clear.

And here, you confirm it by saying this:

"I prefered Turkey eliminating Austria instead of the other way arround."

Which is very, very, foolish. Austria is a naturally ally for Italy. Turkey is always a mortal enemy, always. If Turkey beats Austria, then turkey kills Italy next, ALWAYS... Turkey is the number one most dangerous country to Italy by a long shot, next dangerous is France, least dangerous of your three close neighbors is Austria. You should NEVER let Turkey kill Austria.

so... the first time you paid attention to your east at all, was when you made the mystifying move to Adriatic and Piedmont... For years and years you had ignored the east, with the chance to move to East med, or cut support in Aegean, but you never did, the first time you did anything at all interesting with Ionian sea was to move it to Adriatic, which forced me to react.

Then from my point of view, I had:

A strong turkey trying to kill me,
Russian south fleet long dead, and
An Italian that had absolutely no interest in ever helping me. repeatedly demonstrated with the fleet at Ionian Sea holds...

These facts, made it crystal clear to me that I was certainly going to die. Well I'll be damned if I am going to hold off Turkey while you became powerful killing France and ignoring me. If I was going to die, then I was going to hold you responsible for letting me die. So I took you down with me.

I surely knew that I was going to die, of course, it was not a stab, it was punishment for your not helping me.

Next time you play as Italy, help Austria, kill Turkey, never the other way around...
08 Sep 18 UTC my message crossed with Russian message, but Russia, also an experienced player, totally sees why I did what I did. It was not a stab, it was punishment for poor play.
Long term as Austria, I am trying to teach Italian players to play better...
08 Sep 18 UTC and England, as a side note, it had nothing at all to do with bad luck. And it was not an ill conceived backstab, it was a provoked and deserved kamikaze attack, as Russia pointed out.
08 Sep 18 UTC I agree with that entire message from Tugster and would have basically done the same if put in that position. My reasoning is more about how the chances of getting into a draw are better if you do that (rather than the punitive aspect, which is less important to me), but the conclusion is the same.
08 Sep 18 UTC that's true as well, Austria can sometimes gain a draw by taking over the Italian centers as France might be forced to proper them up.
08 Sep 18 UTC Naw ur right Austria. Looking back at the board, I see what you're talking about and probably would've reacted the same. When I sent that message I had only a very surface view of the situation down south.
08 Sep 18 UTC The most frustrating part was that I was fighting well. Attacking, retreating, counter attacking. Lost Greece, but took rumania, lost it again, but got Greece back, then got Bulgaria, could have actually beat turkey, and each turn hoping that would be the turn that Italy came to his senses, and helped me with ionian sea, but each time, ionian did nothing... Over and over again.. even Germany came to help me...
09 Sep 18 UTC Well I stand corrected. I didnt know for a fact that Turkey is more dangerous to Italy than Austria. I thought by the time Turkey would defeat Austria I could hold a solid position with some of France’s centers, and then be ablel to fight Turkey and maybe contain him efectively.
I was really enjoying the fight between them.
I’m sorry for blowing it this time. But know that I do keep learning as I go. I’ve been playing for 2 years now, and have just recently taken a more in depth interest in this game.
09 Sep 18 UTC There's one more thing you need to know about Turkey vs. Austria, which is not obvious at first. You cannot evaluate their power based on their actual SC count.

Because of his corner position, which limits the fronts he has to fight on, Turkey has a built in +2 SC modifier to evaluate his power. And because Austria is surrounded, with potential fronts on all sides, and the shittiest ports in the game, Austria has about a -2.

This means that Turkey at 6 SC is equal to anyone else at 8 SC.

And to evaluate Austria's true power, subtract 2, so Austria at 6 SC is like anyone else at like 4, 5 max. Austria at 3 SC is unplayable, near certain death, but Turkey can defend sometimes for years and years with 3 SC.

This is going to sound unbelievable, but Turkey at 6 SC is more dangerous than Austria at 9... It's true. I have seen Austria's as big at 10 attacked from all sides and dead in two years. Turkey at 8, 9 or 10 is a major map crisis, and the best you can do is set up lines and hope to slow him down and eventually stop him before he solos.. But you will never kill a turkey after he gets to 8 SC or more, impossible...

6 SC is a trip wire for Turkey to cause large scale alarm, WARNING should ring loudly in everyone's head as soon as Turkey hits 6 SC.

Anyways, good luck in future games, I'll stop writing now, on to other victories!
09 Sep 18 UTC I’ve never heard about that way of calculating a nations power, thanks. I think I need more time with Claesar as my mentor, because this has raised new questions for me. Thanks again.
09 Sep 18 UTC Tugster that’s a very cool teaching heuristic to help players understand and estimate. I will remember that.

WiseJazzer that was a pretty cool response and also Claesar is my good friend who plays with me and my family sometimes, Claesar will steer you right
09 Sep 18 UTC Yes thank you tugster. I will keep that in mind as well

Start Backward Open large map Forward End

bengalfish (1357 D)
Drawn. Bet: 111 D, won: 259 D
16 supply-centers, 15 units
Kingdroid (247 D)
Drawn. Bet: 111 D, won: 259 D
12 supply-centers, 12 units
wise_man (158 D)
Drawn. Bet: 111 D, won: 259 D
6 supply-centers, 6 units
Defeated. Bet: 111 D
WiseJazzer (58 D)
Defeated. Bet: 111 D
Tugster (6852 D)
Defeated. Bet: 111 D
swordsman3003 (11959 D (G))
Defeated. Bet: 111 D
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