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Finished: 08 AM Sat 16 Jun 18 UTC
Private 2018 World Cup Group A PP
1 days, 12 hours /phase
Pot: 35 D - Autumn, 1913, Finished
Classic, Public messaging only, Anonymous players, Unranked, Wait for orders
1 excused missed turn
Game drawn
11 Jun 18 UTC Spring, 1913: Again, France, you could have taken St.P that turn. I enjoyed playing with you for a while, but this prolongation for what can't reasonably be described at this point as anything but holding out for an NMR is quickly souring the experience.
11 Jun 18 UTC Spring, 1913: Moderator: (goldfinger0303): I'll remind you that NMRs are impossible
11 Jun 18 UTC Spring, 1913: A misorder then.
11 Jun 18 UTC Spring, 1913: There's a certain member of the line known for his fat fingers.
11 Jun 18 UTC Spring, 1913: I am truly sorry you feel that way, Kermit. I greatly enjoyed playing with you, though I must say your impatience over what can clearly be described as me making a methodical push in hopes for a stab is quickly souring the experience... particularly when an NMR is prevented in this tournament setting. (I see Goldie beat me to that point)

I think you will find that this was the first phase I could have ensured I safely take STP in a way that I could hold it, I chose to advance my fleet to Finland instead in case Austria chose to stab.

I do not agree with you 1) that Russia should (much less would) throw to me in response to a stab and 2) I do not agree that he can throw to me... that said the point is becoming moot as Austria has probably missed any window of opportunity that may have been open.

I understand your argument to be that Russia would want to throw to me if his team is playing for the wild card spot in the finals. I respectfully disagree. Namely, he would be increasing the gap between himself and advanceable spots… Throwing a solo to me would essentially lock Cascadia and my team into the top two spots... forcing the Russian team to not only beat the other 4 teams in our Group but also the bottom 5 in all the other groups.

IF Russia has a teammate looking to solo in any of the other 3 games the Russian team will receive more points for that solo (including a solo in a GB) than those of us in a 3-way draw here… which would make them the front runner for 2nd...

ELSE Russia's team is looking to be a part of draws in the other 3 games in our group… in which case it is still easier to make up the ground to 2nd/3rd after missing out on a 3-way draw than a solo.

I am not sure why you seem to think the likelihood of throwing for meta (tournament) reasons is somehow acceptable while arguing that my methodical orders allowing for a stab is somehow not playing within the spirit of the game. But, I certainly apologize for my part in souring a fun game.

Austria, it appears the time is now or never... I sincerely hope that you are all able to taunt me afterwards about how irrelevant my pleas for a stab have been... because if someone like Snurky advances BECAUSE of our inability to narrow this, I am going to feel terrible. (<3 you Turkey).
11 Jun 18 UTC Spring, 1913: I'm not sure how the hypothetical of throwing has anything to do with your prolonging the game.

It's perfectly reasonable for you to take St.P in spite of the time it takes to do so. It's also perfectly reasonable to encourage us to stab. What isn't reasonable is prolonging taking St.P to buy yourself more time. The game has been in this state where you effectively own St.P and we're stalemating you elsewhere for four years. You're again obviously allowed to take St.P, but the rules specify two years without movement exactly to prevent the kind of holding out you're doing, which to me means you're already violating them in spirit and will soon also be doing so in practice.

I'm more than happy to blame this on your teammates because I don't like them, but only if you wise up and don't force goldie to intervene.
11 Jun 18 UTC Spring, 1913: I understand that you have in fact not made any moves for 4 years... but I have moved.... indeed over the last two years I have disbanded 2 Russian fleets...

I think Russia's orders have made you feel like I could have taken STP far sooner (indeed his actual move set would have allowed me to if I had been more aggressive), but I believe if you look back you will see that this was the first turn I could ensure that I safely take STP without Russia being able to counter and either take Sweden or immediately take STP back. (e.g., see Fall 1911 in which I could have taken STP with a move from Finland to STP if Sweden tapped GoB, but this would have allowed Russia to take Sweden if he attacked from Baltic with support from GoB)

I have found Russia's Northern obsession this game to be unusual... indeed he had 3 fleets in the GoB area. I chose to eliminate some of those fleets first. I now took one phase to move my fleets into better position while I hoped Austria would stab... your implication that I have essentially been holding out for four years is insulting.

The game rules are explicitly set at 2 years without movement to allow a player to convince another to stab in a stalemated situation to avoid 4-way draws, which is a pretty unimpressive finish to a game. Moreover, the tournament has set the end year as 1920 to prevent anyone actually dragging the game out...

Furthermore, my arguments about the likelihood of Russia throwing are relevant as I have indeed waited one season (fall 1912) to take STP with the hope that Austria will realize that Russia has no incentive to throw, can't throw to me, and that his team needs more than a four-way draw.
11 Jun 18 UTC Spring, 1913: All I'm hearing is you acknowledging that you held off on taking St.P to artificially prolong the game.

I imagine goldie will rule that that the year that just started counts towards your two. I would rule that all the time you've spent taking St.P counts and expect a draw immediately once you take it, but luckily for you it's not up to me.
11 Jun 18 UTC Spring, 1913: France, you have made your point in every conceivable way. (Never mind that I moved northwards to force things with Germany, which might not have translated into huge gains but at least prevented an early death for myself.)

The fact remains: my team prefers 1/4 of the points to zero points, and with zero points we are in such a bad position that I will take it upon me to reward the soloist rather than helping others to merely scrape by my team. Obviously you will argue this is an empty threat; it happens to be a sensible position for me both within the game and within the tournament.

Italy and Austria seem to be worried about your solo. Or maybe they have meta reasons. Either way, I'm grateful for this alliance.
12 Jun 18 UTC Spring, 1913: The only way I'd stab is if Italy told me he thought it likely not to end in a solo for France. I understand that I could accept French support into Berlin and that I could probably prevent France from gaining 4 Russian centers. I also would have a hard time holding both Munich and Berlin and it'd be a delicate balance that I'm not sure is worth the risk.
12 Jun 18 UTC Spring, 1913: The time to safely eliminate Russia had we wanted to was 1908. If France had actually put a desire to thin above a desire to solo, there might still be openings, but there aren't, which means Austria isn't even faced with a tough decision.
12 Jun 18 UTC Spring, 1913: Well I can't argue that 1908 was the ideal time (since I already said that and I did give an explicit move set at that time for doing so) but opportunities have remained ever since and continue to remain.

@ Austria - I will be taking STP with Barents, retreating Ruhr to BEL (hopefully alleviating some of your concerns), supporting MUN to Berlin, and I will cut support elsewhere. Only you (and maybe hardworking meta-gaming Cascadians) know how your team is doing and whether it is worth the risk...

@ Italy - You accuse me of dragging the game out and simultaneously of not providing an opening to thin the draw... we get that you don't care if this is a 3-way draw or a 4-way draw... your unwillingness to vocalize support for an Austrian stab has done more for preventing a thinning than anything else.
12 Jun 18 UTC Spring, 1913: I like how he accuses Cascadia of metagaming and speculates about my identity in the same breath.

I wouldn't have minded a thin (sorry Pluot). I've been bored for a decade and it would have at least been something interesting. But advocating it openly clues others in, and as my units have all been tied up for over half the game at this point, my position is largely irrelevant to that goal. It was up to Austria, and he made a perfectly acceptable choice, especially given that draw thinning has never really been where the French heart lay.
12 Jun 18 UTC Spring, 1913: *Slight change to my moves such that I back up further in case you decide to stab:
Holland to Ruhr
Ruhr to BUR
BUR to Gascony
12 Jun 18 UTC Lol how were those moves more friendly?

I've readied my orders. It's been a pleasure playing with all of you, recent grumpery and desperation aside.
13 Jun 18 UTC It makes it so I need every unit except Baltic fleet and 2 of GoB , Finland, and Norway just to hold the line
13 Jun 18 UTC Ready. (Austria, my friend, I'm holding in Rumania -- not committing suicide-by-neighbor.)
13 Jun 18 UTC *yawn*
14 Jun 18 UTC gg all

Good to see you again Thamrick... shame we couldn't make it happen.
14 Jun 18 UTC gg all

Good to see you again Thamrick... shame we couldn't make it happen.
14 Jun 18 UTC Good game, folks.
14 Jun 18 UTC Damn, that was you the whole time, ghug? I'll make sure to join the Forum chorus from now on.
14 Jun 18 UTC #fuckme
14 Jun 18 UTC So thamrick, had you guessed right that Italy was ghug?
14 Jun 18 UTC So thamrick, had you guessed right that Italy was ghug?
14 Jun 18 UTC I didn't even know Italy was ghug.
14 Jun 18 UTC Good game everyone! Thanks for letting humble Rasputin swim with the sharks.
14 Jun 18 UTC No. I thought Turkey was ghug. I feel dirty...

Lol good game everyone. Enjoyed our partnership ghug. Well played DrCJG - you almost had me convinced but it was probably late at that point. I should've stabbed the original Russia a long time ago.
14 Jun 18 UTC You thought I was that Snurkish? Ouch.

At least France thought I was my esteemed teammate.

The only IDs I knew were France, because he had distinctive teammates helping write bits of press, and Turkey, because I've read good chunks of his public press in the past.
14 Jun 18 UTC Who was the Czar?
14 Jun 18 UTC Italy: So you came after me because of my record, not because I was Turkey and you were Italy?
14 Jun 18 UTC I came after you because you asked me to leave Ionian vacant and I wanted to make sure Austria wouldn't let you get away with your similar demands regarding Greece. In general, I kinda like IT as an alliance.
14 Jun 18 UTC Interesting Ghug, cause I don’t remember getting any help on my press. If you have the time I’d love to know which parts you’re referring to... though I understand if you don’t want to give away some tell.
14 Jun 18 UTC Interesting Ghug, cause I don’t remember getting any help on my press. If you have the time I’d love to know which parts you’re referring to... though I understand if you don’t want to give away some tell.
14 Jun 18 UTC Damn I keep doing that all of a sudden
14 Jun 18 UTC Damn I keep doing that all of a sudden
14 Jun 18 UTC There were some bits early on where your misdirection suddenly got very blatant and CommanderByron-y, and times towards the end where I wanted to strangle chluke. You consistently talked though, so no Vash.
15 Jun 18 UTC Anyway, to be honest, I was very disappointed with the level of play in this game. I know that's easy to say when I was one among the minority that got eliminated, but perhaps you'll excuse me since this is the first press game that I've ever gotten eliminated in.

None of my invaders gained anything worthwhile from eliminating me and France never knew to position itself for a solo push. I won't hash out my verdicts again for each power, but suffice to say that this game would have ended sooner with a five-way draw had Germany taken very basic steps to preserve its armies. This is hardly a tournament-worthy result.
15 Jun 18 UTC I don't disagree. France's choice to move on me when he did basically ended any chance the game had of continuing to be fluid, which he was told at the time. I don't think it was the intent of any of us to split you and then do nothing for the rest of the game, but we had to start somewhere, and I think it became quickly apparent to all of us that working with Turkey would only serve Turkey.

You've been defeated in five press games though? And survived countless more.
15 Jun 18 UTC I stand by my argument that this should have very easily been reduced to 3 as Austria had ample opportunity to stab Russia without my solo particularly around the fall of Germany.

But, I appreciate the criticism of moving to secure my south... I am not sure I would have played it differently because I feel Italy had little choice but to turn on me soon if I had just moved north into Germany... but perhaps I could have gotten past the stalemate line that way... still, I will look back and try to keep it in mind in the future.

Of note - I didn't receive any advice from CommanderByron... so alas, I must suffer from his same blatant misdirection woes. As for chluke, he had no impact on the style of my press and I hope any feud between yall stays between yall...

GG again all.
15 Jun 18 UTC Oh, I don't dislike Byron or chluke. It just felt like them.

I agree that this could have been a three way, but your move basically ensured that nobody would ever solo this game, and I really hate moves like that.

There's definitely a possibility I would have moved on you, depending on how tangled up you got, but I don't think it was a given.
16 Jun 18 UTC ghug: "You've been defeated in five press games though?"

I used to take over a lot of minor positions in games back when PPSC was still around, hence why I was no stranger to negotiating from a difficult situation. There was also one game I rejoined at zero supply centers because I wanted to remember it. That game was going well before it was ruined by a serious bug (related to the one CD on my profile that never happened) where pressing the pause button immediately progressed the game to the next phase. I had negotiated pauses in a few games so I was the last to vote in each of these. In other games I was able to roll back the phase or there was otherwise no damage done, but in that game I took the mods' offer to be removed from the game and refunded my points plus a bonus for the good position I abandoned.

Anyway, this is in fact the first press game that I've been eliminated in that I played from start to finish. I've only been eliminated once before (a no press game).
18 Jun 18 UTC I waited to post again given the server migration.

ghug:
I'm sorry, but you're being hypocritical by insisting that France should have stabbed Germany around 1904/1905. France had little option at the time but to work with its ally. However, I left you with a clear path towards stabbing A-H and you failed to keep the game fluid.

"I don't think it was the intent of any of us to split you and then do nothing for the rest of the game, but we had to start somewhere, and I think it became quickly apparent to all of us that working with Turkey would only serve Turkey."
If "working with Turkey would only serve Turkey", that's because I made the situation one in which you all had no choice but to help me. Did you really expect that eliminating England and Turkey would keep the game fluid? You all voluntarily arranged your units and SC's along the traditional SW-NE stalemate line.
19 Jun 18 UTC Clearly you didn't make the situation such that we had no choice but to help you. I'm not sure I've ever had less desire to work with someone consistently through an entire game.

Someone's going to get eliminated first. That the game went useless shortly after was a result of choices the living players made, not who we elected to kill.

I count at least one other game with a defeat sand takeover, and numerous survives both in and out of takeovers.
19 Jun 18 UTC What game?
19 Jun 18 UTC "That the game went useless shortly after was a result of choices the living players made, not who we elected to kill."

Uh-huh. Well the only 'choice' you pointed to simply didn't make sense. France was absolutely correct not to stab Germany right as England was getting eliminated, as was A-H correct not to stab Russia near the end of the game. And yes, while you had the opportunity to stab Italy after my elimination (as before), you are right that that was risky.
19 Jun 18 UTC "Who was the czar?" -> I think I'm not supposed to reveal player identities as long as the other games are running. Happy to report back.
12 Jul 18 UTC So now that the games are over, who was the Czar?
12 Jul 18 UTC "I count at least one other game with a defeat san[s] takeover"
What other game, ghug?
20 Aug 18 UTC @JECE: the czar was DiplomatJD

Start Backward Open large map Forward End

France
DrCJG (1228 D)
Drawn. Bet: 5 D, won: 5 D
15 supply-centers, 14 units
Austria
thamrick (927 D)
Drawn. Bet: 5 D, won: 5 D
7 supply-centers, 7 units
Italy
ghug (5046 D (B))
Drawn. Bet: 5 D, won: 5 D
6 supply-centers, 6 units
Russia
zosch (127 D)
Drawn. Bet: 0 D, won: D
6 supply-centers, 6 units
England
Ursa (1310 D)
Defeated. Bet: 5 D
Germany
Tvdybgggh (130 D)
Defeated. Bet: 5 D
Turkey
JECE (1322 D)
Defeated. Bet: 5 D
Civil Disorders
DiplomatJD (97 D)Russia (Spring, 1903) with 5 centres.
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