Finished: 07 AM Tue 06 Mar 18 UTC
Your mother dresses you in the morning3
1 days /phase
Pot: 70 D - Autumn, 1906, Finished
Classic, Public messaging only, Anonymous players, Draw-Size Scoring
1 excused missed turn
Game drawn
03 Mar 18 UTC Autumn, 1905: I misspoke - so long as Burgundy is friendly is of course correct.
03 Mar 18 UTC Autumn, 1905: I do agree with you though - The problem is there's no reason now for England to keep you alive. I can get Berlin and Munich if he attacks you... which would leave me on.... 13. Even if I knock off Vienna and Greece that's 15 - still a long way short.
03 Mar 18 UTC Autumn, 1905: @Germany: Pie is better than Spain for my fleet. I was unable to keep GoL. This turn I will move to Bel to get it back, if it is no problem for you.
@England: Please move to WestMed, again, thanks.
04 Mar 18 UTC Autumn, 1905: This is the worst example of setting up a stalemate line I can remember.
04 Mar 18 UTC Autumn, 1905: Germany. If you think you will have an open home center after this fall, take London so you get a build.
04 Mar 18 UTC Autumn, 1905: Italy - that's a bit annoying with Trieste but no serious damage done. I presume that was just to rebalance things and not some prelude to fighting?
04 Mar 18 UTC Autumn, 1905: Sorry, I misread you. I def wanted out of your way and thought your exploding reference was a cue to you moving in there. It’s not even a rebalancing cause you should take Vienna this year and we’ll be back to where we were. Absolutely not a prelude to any fighting.
04 Mar 18 UTC Autumn, 1905: England, regarding the stalemate line, what did you have in mind instead? Is there anything I should be doing to make this game comport more with your ideal?
04 Mar 18 UTC Autumn, 1905: I don’t think I’m going to make any progress against France and don’t think he’s going to make progress against me, unless I’m missing something.
04 Mar 18 UTC Autumn, 1905: OK - I'm building another army.
04 Mar 18 UTC Autumn, 1905: England: It'll still work. You've locked up the middle and while the South isn't secure yet it would take something special.
04 Mar 18 UTC Autumn, 1905: It's really up to you now whether you want this to be a 5-way or 4-way draw.
04 Mar 18 UTC Autumn, 1905: Turkey if you know the secret sauce for the south, let me know.
04 Mar 18 UTC Autumn, 1905: Italy:
In the South you build Army Venice and you can force GOL while still being in Piedmont. So... progress. But it does require error to progress further than that. As England has said though... there have been errors by France already, so no need to rule it out.
04 Mar 18 UTC Autumn, 1905: Pie cuts Mar, Tyl - Pie with support from Venice (bounces as Pie - Mar bounces), Tus s TyS - GOL, Ion - TyS, Aeg - Ion is one way of doing it. At that point there is no room for error or Mar will be lost and from there things could get ugly for France.
04 Mar 18 UTC Autumn, 1905: Italy, if you are interested in a stalemate can take various forms...many times runs east to west. The key for the defenders is to have units behind front line units whose supports cannot be cut.
04 Mar 18 UTC Autumn, 1905: Stp, lvn, pru, sil, boh, mun would work fine. You might lose Austrian centers but you would consolidate and defend your home. It is my belief that if such a line was set up that turkey would conclude he could not get to 18. Obviously, hostilities would end amongst those countries trying to stop the solo.
04 Mar 18 UTC Autumn, 1905: In the spirit of the last two posts I have put up my draw vote.. IMO everyone left has played well enough to get points.
04 Mar 18 UTC Autumn, 1905: England, I've already conceded that I can't get to 18. I never even suggested I could... that was you, all along.

The line as is: Bar s StP; Germany's set-up.. stops me entirely. The only play left is France's stuffing around, and that doesn't benefit me in the slightest - just my ally.

Personally I don't think France has deserved to be in the draw. But if everyone else thinks so then so be it.
04 Mar 18 UTC Autumn, 1905: Question: with public messaging only, anonymous players and draw-size scoring are we always bound to draw? What game set up would provide the incentive for, say, turkey to stab me and grab more scs or Germany to go after France?
04 Mar 18 UTC Autumn, 1905: Draw size scoring means all share equally in draw. From Turkey's perspective he would get the same number of points if he ended up with 1 unit or 17.

Sometimes games go longer with no chat and hidden draw votes. Most games don't end in a solo. The best scenarios would be e.g. three powers left...15 15, 4. One of the 15s has superior position and executes the late stab for the win. IMO a lot of games go until it would be so hard or disruptive of the stalemate line to eliminate any more countries. And one more thought...and watch me eat these public chat games, players may get to like each other a little more so draws end up kinda feel good endings.
04 Mar 18 UTC Autumn, 1905: Excellent explanation, thanks! I have feel good ending feelings so I’m down for a draw. Thanks for breaking that down for me.
04 Mar 18 UTC Autumn, 1905: Personal opinion: draw sized scoring is terrible. If scoring points were the sole objective of anyone playing then you die and France die for no reason at all. It would be bad play but it's conceivable that England and I could arbitrarily split the board 17/17... it's just totally contrived and done only for scoring system purposes. I'd rather draw.
04 Mar 18 UTC Autumn, 1905: England - out of interest, why do you think France has played well enough to be included in the draw? From my perspective he feinted toward you, attacked the only power who could stop me from dominating the East, then faffed about for three years.

04 Mar 18 UTC Autumn, 1905: ^another astute observation from Turkey.

Eliminating France is more trouble than it's worth.
04 Mar 18 UTC Spring, 1906: France, what's your plan here? Why build in Brest?
04 Mar 18 UTC Spring, 1906: @Germany: My plan is ending the game. I built it, because I would like to move it to Mediterranean.
04 Mar 18 UTC Spring, 1906: You need a fleet in Spain SC if you want better leverage over the western med.
04 Mar 18 UTC Spring, 1906: If we're continuing France let me know where mao goes.
04 Mar 18 UTC Spring, 1906: @England: I support you to West Med, again. I think, it is the best.
05 Mar 18 UTC Spring, 1906: Italy - as per previous I'll move Tyl - Pie. I'll also be moving Budapest to Vienna with the intent of moving it on to Bohemia in fall, and Aegean to Ionian.

Let's see if France/England/Germany can stuff it up again :) If so, let's go... if not then let's draw. I still think EGIT is a better draw, but accept Germany's point that it is more trouble than its worth.
05 Mar 18 UTC Spring, 1906: I make a different point regarding the French. Their determination not to go 2v 1 in the north was important in shaping how this game has played out.
05 Mar 18 UTC Um, Germany, what are you doing?
05 Mar 18 UTC France hoping you are supporting yourself into wmed from naf and spa.
05 Mar 18 UTC I know that this next comment will bring me both shame and scorn, but would I be wrong to point out that an unscrupulous Turkish player could pick up 4 centers this turn and go to 14?
05 Mar 18 UTC @England: I support you to hold in WMed from MAO and NA.
05 Mar 18 UTC @England: I support you to hold in WMed from MAO and NA.
05 Mar 18 UTC What do you mean England?

I don't care if Turkey has 10 centers, 14, centers, or 17 centers, if I continue to issue the moves I am, you hold StP, and no further progress is possible beyond Tunis in the Med, Turkey can't win this game.
05 Mar 18 UTC @Turkey - why the tap on Pie?
05 Mar 18 UTC Ok.
05 Mar 18 UTC What were you wanting me to do?
05 Mar 18 UTC We have a stalemate position now. If we just submit holds ad infinitum, Italy and Turkey can't progress further. It'd just be up to Turkey to decide if he wanted to eliminate Italy
05 Mar 18 UTC That's why I said OK...thank you for explanation.
05 Mar 18 UTC Turkey, what’s the plan? Breaking the stalemate line doesn’t seem promising so is there a stab planned for this autumn or should we draw and get on with the next game?
05 Mar 18 UTC Italy! Yes!!
06 Mar 18 UTC Good game all.

I think the screaming about an 18 was misguided, but you certainly put up a strong stalemate line as a result. Draw sized scoring is so artificial that the "right" move now is to wipe out Italy and Germany... but that's just terrible so lets have a draw.
06 Mar 18 UTC I still disagree about that being the "right move." If England had attacked me, I for sure would have given you the centers you needed to solo.

I think England and I could have eliminated France, but just didn't see the point.
06 Mar 18 UTC Thanks for the game.
06 Mar 18 UTC Well that was fun....not the carnival ride kind of fun...more like the fun when the creepy clown finishes his act. Good luck to all.
06 Mar 18 UTC Germany - but in a tournament under that scoring system I just back my units away to give space to do it. Very contrived.

In any case - thank you all for the game - the talk was great even if the result was quite regulation :)

Start Backward Open large map Forward End

TheGoffy (196 D)
Drawn. Bet: 10 D, won: 14 D
10 supply-centers, 10 units
mtidwell82 (104 D)
Drawn. Bet: 10 D, won: 14 D
7 supply-centers, 7 units
cb6000 (149 D (S))
Drawn. Bet: 10 D, won: 14 D
6 supply-centers, 6 units
Gergő (394 D)
Drawn. Bet: 10 D, won: 14 D
6 supply-centers, 6 units
thamrick (927 D)
Drawn. Bet: 10 D, won: 14 D
5 supply-centers, 5 units
DickPick86 (100 D)
Defeated. Bet: 10 D
joben (100 D)
Defeated. Bet: 10 D
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