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Finished: 03 AM Sat 09 Dec 17 UTC
GBHigh35
1 day /phase
Pot: 350 D - Autumn, 1911, Finished
Classic, No messaging, Anonymous players, Draw-Size Scoring
1 excused missed turn
Game won by Tutti (653 D)
08 Dec 17 UTC What the **** Italy!
08 Dec 17 UTC Good job making everything you could out of the situation tutti

Jefe thats some of the most deliberately bad playing I’ve seen in a long time. you could have gotten into a draw,but not only did you throw that away, from your play you came across as vindictive against the players who fought off your poorly-thought-out attacks.
08 Dec 17 UTC Congrats on a well played victory Tutti, but yeah, that should have been an easy draw.
08 Dec 17 UTC Ty all!
You are right, I couldn't break through alone.
But I think France is to blame. The decision to attack Italy in 1902 led to logical consequences. And I didn't see the moment, when Italy could stop it and not be destroyed. Isn't it?
08 Dec 17 UTC Spring 1910 where he supports you into Spain, instead of blocking MAO, Autumn 1910 where he supports you hold of Spain instead of gambling a support to MAO by either me or Russia and again in spring 1911.

There were more chances, but I guess the point is pretty clear. Germany is right - you only won because Italy went on a vendetta against France beyond what was needed.
08 Dec 17 UTC Repeat, I agree that I won thanks to Italy.
I meant something else. Ok, Italy would support France in Spain and lead you to MAO. I would have taken Venice and Italy would have stayed in Portugal. What's next? Repeated move: MAO-Portugal + Irish Sea with channel support in MAO. Second / Third /etc move - France supports you in Portugal.
After 1910 Italy becomes useless for you. And before 1910 France actively fought with him.
08 Dec 17 UTC Italy never voted draw and never even attempted to cooperate with another player except turkey.
08 Dec 17 UTC Check that, I did try to cooperate. Never went against Austria, and I did not attack France. France came for me, causing me to return the favor. Did I help Turkey win - you bet! Don't like it, too bad!
08 Dec 17 UTC Too bad, yes of course it's too bad. You're that kinda player, which you kinda wanna ban from ever meating again. Not because you're good - just because you're so bad you don't even understand the main premish of the game...
08 Dec 17 UTC Italy if I could send you a kick in the rear...learn to play the game from people who know what they’re doing.
08 Dec 17 UTC Look at his stats. He does know the game - he just don't care.
09 Dec 17 UTC Look at what happened. What were my choices? Guess wrong and you are a declining power. France caused me to lose. So, why not use what's left to keep him down too. Everything is fair in this game, as long as you aren't cheating. I do adnit that going to Germany was highly unusual for me. I probably did it because I never had from Italy before.
09 Dec 17 UTC Nobody said you were cheating Jefe; they insulted your decision making. It’s also not cheating to criticize a player for playing a bad strategy from start to finish. You know that nobody is accusing you of cheating or being unfair, and you know that they are actually only accusing you of stupid decisions. So what’s that about?

I conclude that because you have responded as though you were accused of illegitimate gameplay (when you are only accused of foolish gameplay), your actual reason for throwing the game is that you were humiliated by losing and wanted to sooth your ego by taking ownership of your own loss by throwing the game. You would probably never admit this and will probably respond with insults or criticisms, but it’s what I think because of your actions during the game and nonsensical defensive response.
09 Dec 17 UTC I was also disappointed in both Italy's and France's late-game decision making, and repeat that this should have been an easy draw.

Having said that, I will defend the type of play that Italy engaged in. At least a little bit...

I think it is a totally legitimate Diplomacy strategy to extort others by saying "do this or that for me, or I will throw the game to so-and-so". I have used this strategy in non-gunboat games where I am a weak player on the board, as it was sometimes the only strategy left, and it has (occasionally) been effective. Having said that, it is a difficult strategy to use in gunboat where there is limited communication, but I guess it can be tried.

The other consideration is what do players value on their records. I value draws quite highly (you can probably tell from my record), and also consider a survive much better than a defeat. Others (like Jefe?) may value wins, care little for draws, and consider a survive as bad or worse than a defeat. If so, then the behavior is at least a bit more understandable.

Again, I'm not supporting the play -- I object. But just trying to find an explanation that fits with rational behavior. :-)
09 Dec 17 UTC Not what Italy said he was trying to do.
09 Dec 17 UTC Exactly. He threw the game just because he was mad on France. Needless to say, the guy doesn't play to win or get draw's. He plays to feel power over others.
11 Dec 17 UTC I think I did what I could . When everyone around you wants to kill you then you attack

Good win turkey !!
11 Dec 17 UTC Sorry for the misunderstanding. I did not think anyone was cheating or accusing me of cheating. I was only trying to say that anyone's method of playing the game was fair for them to do. This game has some good players. Maybe I did make some dumb decisions. Did I throw the game to Turkey? It was not my intent, but I could clearly see Turkey was getting big and did not try to stop him. Plus, I noted that Turkey was leaving my SC in Venice untouched, giving me the opportunity to maybe survive.

I was not mad at France. He came after me as is fair to do. But I had to turn to push him back, and it became a furball between us. As this is the crux of the problem everyone seems upset with me about, tell me how I could have fended off France and been part of a draw? The only way I see a draw could have happened is if I was eliminated. I don't like giving up. As for the humiliation of losing, just look at my record! I clearly don't have that chess-like gift for seeing many moves ahead. I play for the fun of it, and it was a fun game. What I didn't like was the "bad" play calling. I did not have the confidence in France to let me survive. I don't remember anyone giving me a support to try and get me to help against Turkey. And telling people that they are idiots and "learn how to play" does not encourage people to stay here and "learn to play."

I am good with Draws or Wins. I think everyone should play to win, but I usually end up in games that draw. I have also seen purist players who are offended by draws. I have the same name in VDiplomacy, so you can block me there.

Thanks to Turkey for letting me survive. France, thanks for making it wild. And regardless of the criticism, thanks to everyone for a good game by all.

Start Backward Open large map Forward End

Turkey
Tutti (653 D)
Won. Bet: 50 D, won: 350 D
18 supply-centers, 15 units
Germany
swordsman3003 (13174 D (G))
Survived. Bet: 50 D
6 supply-centers, 6 units
England
Middelfart (1196 D)
Survived. Bet: 50 D
4 supply-centers, 4 units
Russia
dgibson987 (4565 D)
Survived. Bet: 50 D
4 supply-centers, 4 units
France
Bosch Dewalt (100 D)
Survived. Bet: 50 D
2 supply-centers, 2 units
Italy
Jefe (85 D (S))
Survived. Bet: 50 D
0 supply-centers, 2 units
Austria
Loresanta (216 D)
Defeated. Bet: 0 D
Civil Disorders
KansasBoyd (25 D X)Austria (Spring, 1904) with 4 centres.
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