Finished: 08 PM Sat 29 Jul 17 UTC
Echo Near Heart
1 days /phase
Pot: 175 D - Autumn, 1908, Finished
Classic, Anonymous players, Sum-of-Squares Scoring
1 excused missed turn
Game drawn
26 Jul 17 UTC Autumn, 1907: I somewhat accepted your claim that you and Russian were not talking. More wishful thinking on my part. Good diplomacy on yours.
26 Jul 17 UTC Autumn, 1907: Well, France, why not accept my offer into Brest?
26 Jul 17 UTC Autumn, 1907: Wall of silence when it counted and now opens up on the global board with stalemate analysis.
26 Jul 17 UTC Autumn, 1907: Italy, you are a liar without any honour.
You wrote: "I will stay in Budapest, but I won't make any more moves against you. I suggest you try to protect Sevastapol. You should also take Bulgaria. I won't touch Serbia, so you can move Rumania to Bulgaria and use Serbia to support the move."
26 Jul 17 UTC Autumn, 1907: Its no strategy, just simple lying
26 Jul 17 UTC Autumn, 1907: I dont know how you can be proud of it.
26 Jul 17 UTC Autumn, 1907: You should have never accepted that deal. Given enough time, the Austria, Turkey, and the Balkans will always fall to whoever controls the Mediterranean.
26 Jul 17 UTC Autumn, 1907: Russia if a player has a goal of achieving a solo, he likely must occasionally deceive. Instead of reacting in anger, think about things that ought to have told you what he was really going to do. The nearness of the Italian solo made that promise almost surely false. I'm not preaching to you, but to myself. I should have pulled out of Russia sooner, but that might not have made a difference if you believed Italy even as late as the last move!
26 Jul 17 UTC Autumn, 1907: Germany made the mistake to attack me - a small, friendly nation - instead of attacking Italy - that wasn't clever.
26 Jul 17 UTC Autumn, 1907: I didn't believe Italy completely, Germany, but I think it was the first time hed lied to me in this game. I had no other choice than attacking Bulgaria.
I attacked from Serbia, because Italy suggested to attack by Rumania. If I had attacked from Rumania, I had not conquered Bulgaria.
26 Jul 17 UTC Autumn, 1907: I was allied with Italy at that time, and Turkey.
26 Jul 17 UTC Autumn, 1907: "Russia if a player has a goal of achieving a solo, he likely must occasionally deceive."
I recommend to read the bible.
26 Jul 17 UTC Autumn, 1907: Plus, you were building to 7 but for my stab. As it was, you didn't build. I think I made the right call at that time.
26 Jul 17 UTC Autumn, 1907: I've read the Bible. Isn't it true that the Hebrews frequently used deception against their enemies?
26 Jul 17 UTC Autumn, 1907: Im sorry, Germany, and Im not angry on you - I didnt lose points in this game and civil disorders are always difficult to play, so I have no reason for anger -
but it was difficult for me to trust you, because you attacked me the whole time (except in the last move, which I like very much).
26 Jul 17 UTC Autumn, 1907: I just quote:
"Autumn, 1906: Lol. You attack me the whole time.
Leave my country NOW or we lose together.
St Petersburg is no German territory"
26 Jul 17 UTC Autumn, 1907: Yeah, but for the misorders in North Sea, lol.
26 Jul 17 UTC Autumn, 1907: Another quote that nobody can say I didnt understand the game.
(To: Germany, from you) - Spring, 1906: Why do you attack me?
Dont you see that Italy tries to win solo?
26 Jul 17 UTC Autumn, 1907: The point I was trying to make is that you shouldn't have believed the Italian promise in Serbia. It was a pretty outlandish lie, and an obvious one. But I recognize that the Italian player here is good at lying. That makes him dangerous on the diplomacy board. The really good players in this game are all skilled liars.
26 Jul 17 UTC Autumn, 1907: I hate to lie, because I try to be an honest layer (of course, it is not always possible, but you often see twice in life or games and it makes more fun if you play a good game than lying)
26 Jul 17 UTC Autumn, 1907: Well, look at it this way. The story of Rahab. Joshua sent spies into Jerico. They hid in her room. The Jerico soldiers came to her. Here is what Joshua 2 says, "The woman had taken the two men and hidden them. She said, “Yes, two men did come to me, but I didn’t know where they’d come from. At dark, when the gate was about to be shut, the men left. But I have no idea where they went. Hurry up! Chase them—you can still catch them!”

She flat out lied. She lied well. Then, the spies climbed down her window in a red rope.

Rahab, then a resident of Jerico, became a Hebrew. Jesus Christ decended from her line.

If it was ok for Rahab to lie to the soldiers of Jerico, I don't think God will be mad at you if you lie a little in a game like Diplomacy.
27 Jul 17 UTC Spring, 1908: Wow, what happened while I was asleep?!
27 Jul 17 UTC Spring, 1908: I'm going to ignore the biblical stuff, because I don't need a fictional book written 2000 years ago telling me how to play a game.
27 Jul 17 UTC Spring, 1908: Russia, you call me a liar without honor. Do you understand quite how insane it is to be upset about someone lying to you in this game?
Here is a quote from the product description straight off the Diplomacy game box. "Diplomacy is the ultimate strategy game of pure skill. No dice and no luck - double dealing, deception and danger dog every move."

Double dealing and deception. It is literally part of the game description. How many games have you played, and you still react like this? Diplomacy really isn't the game for you.
27 Jul 17 UTC Spring, 1908: Also I don't like you describing what I (or anyone in this game) was doing as lying. Lying is easy, anyone can lie. In diplomacy we use deception. The art of deception is to lie and make the other person believe you are telling the truth.

Deception and misdirection are vital parts of warfare. If you think any major military campaign was won without any deception then you are seriously mistaken.
27 Jul 17 UTC Spring, 1908: A quote from Sun Tzu, The Art of War: "All warfare is based on deception. Hence, when we are able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must appear inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him believe we are near."
27 Jul 17 UTC Spring, 1908: I was looking for a good quote from Carl von Clausewitz (probably the most famous western military strategist, came up with the term "fog of war").
He doesn't like to rely on deception as much as Sun Tzu, but still says it has it's place when forces of equal strength are facing off.
27 Jul 17 UTC Spring, 1908: It's funny you don't need a book from 2000 years ago telling you how to play Dip. Then, you quote Sun Tzu, c 512 BC, for telling us how to play.
27 Jul 17 UTC Spring, 1908: Clausewitz: "War is not merely a political act, but also a real political instrument, a continuation of political commerce, a carrying out of the same by other means."
27 Jul 17 UTC Spring, 1908: No, those were entirely separate points. The first was simply a dismissal of the bible as a basis for whether or not I should lie in this game. The second point was showing that Sun Tzu (still very relevant for modern warfare) believed deception was an important part of military strategy.
Please re-read my arguments before you jump to any more conclusions.
27 Jul 17 UTC Spring, 1908: That's a nice quote from Clausewitz, but not really relevant to this discussion. It doesn't tell us anything about Clausewitz's position on deception in warfare.
27 Jul 17 UTC Spring, 1908: Russia, you said: " I hate to lie, because I try to be an honest layer (of course, it is not always possible, but you often see twice in life or games and it makes more fun if you play a good game than lying)"

I do agree with you in some situations. I really enjoy games when I find a really good ally and we both trust each other and bring the game to a friendly end. However the whole point of playing this game is to win, and if you can't win you try to force a draw to make sure the other guy can't solo. It is very difficult to solo in this game if you don't use deception. You need allies in this game to become powerful, then if you want to solo you will have to betray one of your allies at some point.
If you play these games to win, you simply must use deception, or else all you can do is draw.
27 Jul 17 UTC Spring, 1908: My bad. I thought you were making a point with the Sun Tzu argument that this is a war game involving deception.

With regard to the Bible and lying, I thought my point was the same as yours. The Hebrews frequently used deception against their enemies, and the deception was celebrated as the key to victory. For example, take Gideon's victory over the Mideonites in the Horeh Valley. (Judges 8) I must have misread your argument because I thought we were making the same point about the value of deception using different sources. I think the issue here is maybe that you see the Bible as worthless. While Russia and I maybe see it as at least as valuable a source as Sun Tzu.
27 Jul 17 UTC Spring, 1908: I think we are making the same points too, just using different sources.
I don't consider the bible completely worthless, it brings some people happiness, so by that alone I think it has worth.
However, when talking about war games and deception I think The Art of War has far more value than the bible.
The bible is just a series of stories (true, regardless whether or not you believe them).
The Art of War was a book written by a known author. He was a military strategist, who spent a long time studying war, collected evidence and wrote down his conclusions.
When you read interviews with modern generals, they almost always mention The Art of War, but no one mentions The Bible.
27 Jul 17 UTC Spring, 1908: I real wars you never change allies as pants.
Of course you lie to enemies, but you don't lie to your allies and don't stab them. Please tell me a war, in which two nations fought together and finally one nation attacked the former ally.
In a real war the people would never accept the decision to attack an ally, with whom the own soldiers have fought together. People don't like liars. The soldiers wouldn't understand why they should fight against their former comrades.It would demoralize the own armies.
27 Jul 17 UTC Spring, 1908: True, but you were never my ally. You allowed yourself to believe you were, but you never were. You were always my enemy. In your analogy, my soldiers were laughing at your foolish soldiers who allowed us to get so close before we attacked you.

Your analogy makes no sense anyway. A real war is fought to the end, destruction or surrender. Diplomacy games are different. There can only be 1 winner. I saw an opportunity and I took it. If the real world was more like Diplomacy I think people would betray their allies far more often.
27 Jul 17 UTC Spring, 1908: Wow, Italy really is the worst country. My home bases are so far away!
27 Jul 17 UTC Spring, 1908: If all players have the goal of a solo, which in my opinion makes for a higher chance of artistry in the individual game, then nobody is your true ally. You are merely using any ally along the way to achieve the goal of a solo. Therefore, if it works to help achieve the goal, you must occasionally and judiciously lie to your (temporary) allies.

In regards to morality think of this. God has placed me into a game where deception is embedded as an element. God wants me to do my best. Therefore, deceipt is moral in the circumstances of a Dip game.

I am not saying lying as a regular operating diplomatic strategy is beneficial. In fact, people don't like lying and some are very unforgiving. Therefore, it must be minimized and used with great care.
27 Jul 17 UTC Spring, 1908: Very true. Lying isn't generally considered a positive trait, but in this game it can be one, when used correctly.

Russia, would you mind readying up? I'm starting to get a bit worried about my claims to a solo! ;)
27 Jul 17 UTC Spring, 1908: Sry, Im a bit busy atm.
27 Jul 17 UTC Spring, 1908: ? You just need to click 1 button
27 Jul 17 UTC Spring, 1908: But then I have only 12 hours time for the next move.
At the weekend (soon) I have more time. Sorry.
27 Jul 17 UTC Spring, 1908: Drag it out until August. Italy probably wants to get a bump to his July gh.
27 Jul 17 UTC Spring, 1908: (Just kidding around.)
28 Jul 17 UTC Haha, trust France to become active now!
28 Jul 17 UTC I give up, everyone happy for a draw?
28 Jul 17 UTC Glad for a draw.
28 Jul 17 UTC gg well played and a fair draw at the end
28 Jul 17 UTC Great game folks. Enjoyed meeting you all.
28 Jul 17 UTC well played everyone

Start Backward Open large map Forward End

Italy
twiddlestix (1410 D)
Drawn. Bet: 25 D, won: 109 D
16 supply-centers, 13 units
Germany
eturnage (500 D (B))
Drawn. Bet: 25 D, won: 52 D
11 supply-centers, 11 units
Russia
Javatiger (2932 D)
Drawn. Bet: 0 D, won: 16 D
6 supply-centers, 6 units
France
Acgv (326 D)
Drawn. Bet: 0 D, won: 1 D
1 supply-centers, 1 units
England
maxitaxi123 (100 D)
Defeated. Bet: 25 D
Austria
Defeated. Bet: 0 D
Turkey
kevinabt (219 D)
Defeated. Bet: 0 D
Civil Disorders
Shepherd81 (100 D)Russia (Autumn, 1901) with 4 centres.
Dalamar (100 D)Austria (Autumn, 1904) with 2 centres.
BurntAlmond (100 D)Austria (Autumn, 1903) with 6 centres.
Hippopankake (80 D)France (Autumn, 1907) with 1 centres.
Classic Belarus (100 D)Turkey (Autumn, 1906) with 4 centres.
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