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Finished: 06 PM Wed 03 May 17 UTC
8=============D Guess What it is and Join
1 day /phase
Pot: 70 D - Spring, 1909, Finished
Classic, Public messaging only, Anonymous players, Draw-Size Scoring
1 excused missed turn
Game drawn
27 Apr 17 UTC Autumn, 1907: for attacking france, you're being slapped, how dare you?!
27 Apr 17 UTC Autumn, 1907: Well Russia my argument is up /|\
27 Apr 17 UTC Autumn, 1907: Italy:
1.- You never moved against Turkey nor where you aggressive against him. My point is you where not friendly either. This is what I mean:
(To: Global, from Italy) - Autumn, 1903: This is gonna be a problem for me then
(To: Global, from Turkey) - Autumn, 1903: Italy i did not mean anything about you not being in the alliance
(To: Global, from Italy) - Autumn, 1903: I know that
Just how do you plan on expanding ?
Unlikely you just try to squeeze through vienna

2.- Turkey mentioned an agreement with France here, before you attacked him:
(To: Global, from Turkey) - Spring, 1904: France if you take out England and We Take out Germany we can do a 4 way draw

Italy and Russia can we do a 4 Way draw

3.- Your defensive move in spring 1905 count as unfriendly because I asked if you would do it and you said "sure":
(To: Global, from you) - Autumn, 1904: I say Turkey should keep moving up to Boh with support maybe from Tyr?
(To: Global, from Italy) - Autumn, 1904: Sure.

Thats exactly being unfriendly, and at the same time you didn't do what you said you would do (help me and Turkey), you attacked France, after a possible 4 way draw was mentioned. Thats what makes me feel ok with taking you out and gaining a bit more points
27 Apr 17 UTC Autumn, 1907: Oops I didn't realize that France was in the alliance
I completely missed that message
That's completely my fault
But either way once turkey told me to back off and inferred he was in an alliance I agreed and backed off
27 Apr 17 UTC Autumn, 1907: And the turkey move was a mistake and as I said earlier, It didn't make a difference as he still got it by build phase. Accidentally missing moves isn't being unfriendly
27 Apr 17 UTC Autumn, 1907: And the turkey move was a mistake and as I said earlier, It didn't make a difference as he still got it by build phase. Accidentally missing moves isn't being unfriendly
27 Apr 17 UTC Autumn, 1907: It's ok. I'll keep that in mind next time we play together :-)
27 Apr 17 UTC Autumn, 1907: And finally your first argument with my conversation with Turkey.
His original offer was to bounce austria so he could get Bulgaria and in exchange

Autumn 1902 turkey "Then I will give you Trieste and Vienna"

In spring 1903 he supported me to trieste.

Now fast forward to 1903

Turkey had an alliance from the start with you and had Earlier offered me Vienna.
When you supported turkey to Budapest, if turkey was to fulfill his promise about Vienna he would be stuck between me and you and he would have mot likely attacked me. When I saw that I then stated

"This might be a problem" because I was worried about a stab coming.

Turkey then said (autumn 1903)"Italy I did not mean anything about you not being in the alliance"
If he only had a one unit line then I thought he would be worried about you stabbing him and to give himself a better position by attacking me. I voiced that from me saying "how do you plan on expanding? Unlikely you just try to squeeze through Vienna.

If he only had a one unit front then he would have a lot of units idle on my border.
I voiced my worries and when he said he would just deal with it, I put a lot of faith in him and supported him to Vienna and to Munich ( and yeah I know I forgot to do it 1 turn). It was from all his units on that border that I support holded.

In the end that conversation was me reasonably being worried about a stab yet putting a lot of trust into turkey.

Overall:

1) sorry France for attacking you, I didn't realize we had made a 4 way alliance, (but when turkey told me to retreat I apologized and retreated immediately" The attack was based off of him being the only person who I thought wasn't an ally on my border

2.) My conversation with turkey in 1903 me voiceing my worries about being stabbed as turkey was about to get 4 units on my border and with only 1 unit on a front with someone not allied"

3.) My support hold was based off of me seeing the message and forgetting about it when I made moves later, and also seeing a possible stab. And in the end the damage was benign

So russia when in your very first argument when you said " you really only attacked austria" what did you expect me to do?

In the end I feel like I was never unfriendly, I supported turkey into Bulgaria, Budapest, Vienna, and munich.My communication in autumn 1903 was because I was afraid of a stab and turkeys previous promise. My missed support was because I forgot about the earlier conversation and being defensive on a possible stab and throughout the whole time I put a lot of faith in my alliance with Turkey. My attack against france was because he was my only border that wasn't an ally and also france didnt make the 4 way alliance until I was already in midatlantic and gulf of Lyon so I actually attacked France before that making it not a stab. When Turkey told me to leave I did without doing anything else.

In the end the reason why I'm angry is that I never broke the alliance or attacked anyone but you claim I was unfriendly because I was being weary of a stab, You claim I stabbed france, yet I started my attack before the alliance started and retreated when turkey objected. I feel like I put a lot of trust into turkey and Russia but because of excuses of me not being friendly you attack me when I helped turkey secure 3 scs.
27 Apr 17 UTC Autumn, 1907: When you put it like that, I say you have every right to be angry.

Let me ask you this: if you where in my place would you include Italy in a 4 way draw?
Be serious about it
27 Apr 17 UTC Spring, 1908: So if I was Russia I would have taken advantage of the three way draw when turkey left.
If I was in this position right now as Russia I would probably not but I may have when Germany left because I wouldn't have wanted to risk a potential French stab or waste another week for 6 coins.

Now if I was in turkeys position...
I'm not sure about that, Its going to probably take 4 turns to defeat italy and I'd still be worried about a Russian stab. I'm not sure.

If I was france I would actually consider stabbing with a move to berents sea and an attack on Kiel because even if Im beat back they will still draw as turkey and russia will be worried of the other soloing and wouldn't want to try a 17-17 2 way draw.
Actually I may consider that if I was russia too for the same reason of not being able to be entirely defeated
27 Apr 17 UTC Spring, 1908: Regarding bulletpoint 1: Zat is right! Never attack fleur-de-lis. Zat signify lily in French, délicat symbol of la France, I explain for ceux sans éducation, because la France is allié, so, attaquez la France, zat makes you not allié and bad bad boy, remember.
27 Apr 17 UTC Spring, 1908: France and Turkey: I'm moving Sil to Berlin and War to Sil. All my other units will hold
27 Apr 17 UTC Spring, 1908: Um have no Idea what Frances point there was or what he was trying to say. The attack started before the 4 way alliance and I stopped when turkey told me to
27 Apr 17 UTC Spring, 1908: And I guess that means I die now?
27 Apr 17 UTC Spring, 1908: I am going to stand to the side with this whole argument. From what I can deduce before my arrival, Italy has a valid point. I'm sorry you got screwed for missing one message, and I wouldn't mind a draw right now. However, I doubt that would happen with the other players(s). Sorry mate.
27 Apr 17 UTC Spring, 1908: Italy has been vacillating between an irresolute defense from Turkey to an irresolute support for Turkey, to an irresolute attack on France, to an irresolute defence from France, and lastly to an irresolute stab at Turkey. Turkey’s moves have also been strange, and Italy’s moves became even stranger in response to Turkeys strategy.

If I had been Italy, I would have attacked Turkey at the first instance the Juggernaut became apparent. If I had been Turkey I would have attacked Italy when Austria was out and Russia remained friendly. But, contrary to what I would consider a rational straight forward course of action, Italy and Turkey decided otherwise and the development down south became weird and the conversation amusing.

I tried to keep my southern front quiet while I was busy in England, and luckily I was able to disengage in the north in order to meet the Italian threat in the south. All this talk about a four way alliance is news to me, it’s a figment of twisted imagination in the disfunctional relationship between Italy and the first Turkey, and that’s the way I see it.
27 Apr 17 UTC Spring, 1908: Um ok then so france you didnt think there was a four way alliance either? Or what do you mean by that. And turkey even with me not supporting that move old turkey didn't lose a build and when its a 3v2 on a border what would you do?
27 Apr 17 UTC Spring, 1908: Well you said you thought there was a four way alliance, based on what Turkey said, and if there was an alliance you broke it by stabbing Turkey.
28 Apr 17 UTC Spring, 1908: I guess you haven't been paying attention france so back to spring 1905 after the awkward I missed the france alliance and was in the middle of the attack I retreated yet turkey still went to Ionian Sea ( as he had said he claimed he didnt understand me saying I was going to stop,) I said "sure sure" and said we can get a 4 way draw if we play our cards right. So turkeys at Ionian Sea now. Russia comes in and says "we dont need italy in the draw" turkey who seemed like he wasn't going to attack me at first says any objections to the draw? Russia confirms and he clearly is going to attack me. Then all the sudden near the end of the turn while im complaining about him stabbing me I say " really tho I helped you the whole game and you are doing this " turkey says I was just kidding dude. I'm now rly confused and I say "I have no idea if turkey is joking or not" there ends up being no response before the turn ends so I went with it like turkey was trying to trick me. Turkey had set up to retreat and all the sudden everyone is confused and turkey dmr's for some reason. Now Russia says he's fine with a draw but france says that because I attacked him (but then gave up my position and retreated) he's going to attack me. Russia now prepares to attack me, turkey joins in against me as everyone is hating on me now and that how I got here.

France, Turkey Is the person who broke the alliance by claiming he was attacking me (and also Russia for suggesting it I guess) when I took over turkeys scs It was meant to be a defensive bounce but through turkeys strange communication at the time, I had no idea if we was or wasn't attacking me so I took the safe route. So russia I didn't stab france as the attack was before we made the alliance and France I didnt stab turkey as I was defending myself as he claimed he was attacking me
28 Apr 17 UTC Spring, 1908: I still dont get why we didnt 3 way draw when turkey left the game
28 Apr 17 UTC Spring, 1908: Its still probably gonna take 4 turns and including builds and retreats will take around 5 days to end.

Can we just draw plz?
28 Apr 17 UTC Spring, 1908: Wow, you’re quite a spinmeister.
Let me simplify (not really):
France never attacked you before you moved against her, very provocatively.
You did not have an official deal with France, but Turkey thought you had an implied deal (or was just messing with you, very likely) and convinced you to follow it, a simple Jedi mind trick, usually doesn’t work, but it worked on you (or maybe you were bluffing as well).
On the other hand you had an official deal with Turkey, whereby you would be friends and Turkey would stream his forces through a one space corridor into western europe, the weirdest plan I have seen yet.
Then, Turkey moved against you provocatively to enforce the implied non aggression against la France. You reacted by taking a chunk out of Turkey. You were the one who actively took an SC from Turkey, your ally, against their will. That is a stab, a preventive stab, a defensive stab, a preemptive stab, a misunderstood stab, and a feeble stab, but you bit first and it seems to me the game between you and Turkey was who wold blink first, and you did, like you were bound to because Turkey was this evil genius who put you in your terrible situation, or maybe it’s the other way around.
28 Apr 17 UTC Spring, 1908: So attacking you was the logical move as turkey blocked my whole eastern front and I never even thought me or russia/turkey that I had a deal with you. With only 1 front that was the only way to advance.

So this is the order of the commands

1.) I start attack on france in the auto.1903 to spr 1904 move,

2.) in fall after I've attacked you they agree to some vague 4 way draw if it was even meant to be that

3.) Ive already attacked you before we had a "4 way draw" and I agree to retreat

4.) Turkey still moves to Ionian Sea claiming he didnt understand for some reason that I was retreating even though I said it in chat

5.) Russia suggests we dont need turkey in autumn in 1905 and Italy agree
They both then discuss support

6.) I complain about me helping and turkey stabbing me after all of it and
turkey says I was just joking

7.) I become very confused and I try to talk to turkey but the turn only has 30 mins left

8.) I feel like turkey is trying to distriact me and easily defeat me so I play it safe and try to cut support/ make turkey worry about other centers by moving to Vienna. I assume either way not much harm will be done as if he was joking he will support hold

9.) For some reason turkey supports holds Serbia instead of Vienna and I end up getting turkey

10.) Russia is still confused because he also thought turkey was going to attack

11.) Russia doesn't want to waste time and wants to draw

12.) France decided s he wants to attack Italy even though Italy retreated and completely lost any leverage over France intentionally.

France, Turkey was saying he was going to attack me and was communicating with Russia about attacking. By saying he's going to attack me he ends the alliance and therefore it isn't a stab.

And also how was I manipulating turkey or whatever magic you claim I may have done? And how was I bluffing when Turkey told me to retreat? I even told you how I was gonna move. What exactly was I bluffing about.

Even though I actively took a chunk out of turkey that was because HE CLAIMED HE WAS ATTACKING ME and a stab is when you attack a person you have an alliance with when they aren't expecting it.

I don't know what kind of logic you are using france
28 Apr 17 UTC Spring, 1908: Here's my plan: Turkey bump Rome, I'll take Tyrrhenian sea, and then I will support you into the rest of Italy.
28 Apr 17 UTC Spring, 1908: So once again how did I stab anyone or betray an alliance?
28 Apr 17 UTC Spring, 1908: There are good stabs and bad stabs, good stabs rub out the victim, bad stabs only make them mad, in this game your stabs are so bad that you're arguing they're not even stabs :D
28 Apr 17 UTC Spring, 1908: I'm pretty sure France is like 12 years old
Turkey ended the alliance by planning to attack me so its not a stab but a normal attack

Its like how I didnt stab you because we didn't have Ann alliance

Technically I may have accidentally stabbed you after the alliance was made, but I wasn't part of that decision making process and wasn't made aware

Like Russia and turkey, would you consider that a stab?
28 Apr 17 UTC Spring, 1908: Nah, I'm 5.
28 Apr 17 UTC Spring, 1908: Well I feel sad
28 Apr 17 UTC Spring, 1908: I wonder what turkey was thinking when he retreated that turn
I guess we'll never know

Though I think if turkey was still here, he would have 4 way drawed
Also if France wasn't mentally disabled Russia would have agreed to a 4 way draw as France wouldn't have been so eager to attack me
28 Apr 17 UTC Spring, 1908: Actually it would have been a 3 way draw as turkey wasn't here

Lol just realized France just wasted another week of his time
28 Apr 17 UTC Spring, 1908: There still a chance to draw ;-)
29 Apr 17 UTC Autumn, 1908: Week? This could end on this move:
Aegean into Gre with support from Bul
Apu or Tyrr sea into Rome with support from the one who doesn't move and Ven. With GoL cutting support against Tus

And Italy is eliminated
29 Apr 17 UTC Autumn, 1908: What do you guys think France and Turkey?
29 Apr 17 UTC Autumn, 1908: I will let Turkey take Rome, and he doesn't really need my help to do so.
29 Apr 17 UTC Autumn, 1908: Apu - Rome with support from Naples and Venice for example. Tuscany is a fleet and not a threat to Venice.
30 Apr 17 UTC Autumn, 1908: I meant that france lost a week of time in total for not drawing when Turkey NMR ed
30 Apr 17 UTC Autumn, 1908: Excellent
01 May 17 UTC Autumn, 1908: Well I'm sad
01 May 17 UTC Autumn, 1908: GG tho

I should have pushed for more centers from old turkey
01 May 17 UTC Autumn, 1908: I won't be mean and waste time tho
01 May 17 UTC Autumn, 1908: GG, you had me worried for a while, that is why i was talking trash and I was trying hard to make you paranoid of Turkey.
01 May 17 UTC Autumn, 1908: Eh i was always paranoid of turkey
02 May 17 UTC who created this game named 8=============D
02 May 17 UTC Old turkey i think
02 May 17 UTC Great game everyone!
02 May 17 UTC :(
02 May 17 UTC yes, great, thanks
02 May 17 UTC :(
02 May 17 UTC Terrific game chaps

Start Backward Open large map Forward End

Turkey
YanksFan47 (185 D)
Drawn. Bet: 0 D, won: 23 D
12 supply-centers, 11 units
France
moresunward (100 D)
Drawn. Bet: 10 D, won: 23 D
11 supply-centers, 11 units
Russia
WiseJazzer (128 D)
Drawn. Bet: 10 D, won: 23 D
11 supply-centers, 11 units
England
Saria (100 D)
Defeated. Bet: 0 D
Italy
Jacob63831 (160 D)
Defeated. Bet: 0 D
Germany
Moralltach (100 D)
Defeated. Bet: 0 D
Austria
20011995 (100 D)
Defeated. Bet: 0 D
Civil Disorders
Nigerski (0 D X)Germany (Spring, 1905) with 4 centres.
Bass_Lands (100 D)Germany (Autumn, 1905) with 1 centres.
firebutthole1 (100 D)Germany (Spring, 1902) with 5 centres.
Saria (100 D)England (Autumn, 1905) with 0 centres.
DragonKiller101 (10 D X)Turkey (Autumn, 1906) with 8 centres.
jduke21 (100 D)England (Autumn, 1903) with 2 centres.
DeepWeb (0 D X)Austria (Autumn, 1903) with 1 centres.
ethanm6 (100 D)Italy (Spring, 1902) with 3 centres.
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