Finished: 02 PM Mon 08 Jun 09 UTC
Short and sweet
12 hours /phase
Pot: 88 D - Autumn, 1914, Finished
Classic, Survivors-Win Scoring
1 excused missed turn
Game won by wee_alex (1330 D)
03 Jun 09 UTC Autumn, 1901: hey guys, sorry i'm late. i ended up watching the hockey game last night instead of troubleshooting my internet issue. anyway game on!
03 Jun 09 UTC Autumn, 1901: I watched the first period - looks like the Pens are back on track. Do you see it going to seven?
03 Jun 09 UTC Autumn, 1901: i would love for that to happen, but it would be really hard on my sleeping. i enjoy watching the games so much it takes me some time after wards to wind down. :-)
03 Jun 09 UTC Autumn, 1901: There's been some really good match ups this year: Pens and Caps; Hawks and Wings; and lots of game sevens
03 Jun 09 UTC Autumn, 1901: which has resulted in a lot of late night tv for me! :-)
03 Jun 09 UTC Autumn, 1901: Has anyone heard from Austria/Turkey? Only 7 minutes left, and they still haven't finalized...
03 Jun 09 UTC Autumn, 1901: damn being busy and missing my turn..!
04 Jun 09 UTC Spring, 1902: Hey guys, i have to withdraw. i can't make the 12hr turns.
04 Jun 09 UTC Spring, 1902: /withdraw
04 Jun 09 UTC Spring, 1902: /quit
04 Jun 09 UTC Spring, 1902: hell you all know what i mean.
04 Jun 09 UTC Spring, 1902: That's OK, Snell...I'll get you in the next 24-hour game!
04 Jun 09 UTC Spring, 1902: So what happens with Russia now?
04 Jun 09 UTC Spring, 1902: They go into Civil Disorder after they miss two submissions. After that, anyone can pick them up.
04 Jun 09 UTC Spring, 1902: Cool. Another newbie question: when does the game end (other than by a draw)?
04 Jun 09 UTC Spring, 1902: It only ends when 1 player gets 18 centers (after which points are divided proportionally by the # of centers you have), or if there are no changes in centre levels for (I believe) 2 years.
04 Jun 09 UTC Autumn, 1902: Another question: I see that we have all finalized except for Russia (who said he was withdrawing). Can we ask a mod to accelerate the turn in this situation? Or do we have to wait another 11 hours?
05 Jun 09 UTC Autumn, 1902: Unfortunately, we have to wait the full 11 hours. Sigh...
05 Jun 09 UTC Autumn, 1902: i guess russia had too much vodka.. *punchline drums*
05 Jun 09 UTC Autumn, 1902: ba-ding-ding!
07 Jun 09 UTC Autumn, 1903: GameMaster: Ivo_ivanov has taken over Turkey.
07 Jun 09 UTC Autumn, 1903: Hello everyone.
07 Jun 09 UTC Autumn, 1903: Hello Ivo. Nice pick up - Turkey is in pretty good shape.
07 Jun 09 UTC Autumn, 1903: Greetings!
08 Jun 09 UTC Spring, 1904: Hello. Yep, a good CD.
12 Jun 09 UTC Autumn, 1910: Rest in Pieces, Angleterre!
12 Jun 09 UTC Autumn, 1910: Next time Gadget.
12 Jun 09 UTC Spring, 1911: /draw
12 Jun 09 UTC Spring, 1911: GameMaster: Ivo_ivanov has voted for a draw.
Voted: Ivo_ivanov Remaining: wee_alex,Plastic Hussar.
12 Jun 09 UTC Spring, 1911: Hoping for a 3-way draw and not having to pick which one I'll have to help get the win otherwise in a survival attempt :)
12 Jun 09 UTC Spring, 1911: no hard feelings, but I am not supporting a draw
13 Jun 09 UTC Autumn, 1911: So what are you playing for then - a win? :)
13 Jun 09 UTC Autumn, 1911: I'm just 7 SC away.
13 Jun 09 UTC Autumn, 1911: For you to win this game FRA will have to hand it to you - which will only make sense if the two of you are cheating (multi-accounting or meta-gaming)
13 Jun 09 UTC Autumn, 1911: That accusation is bitter and petty. We have an alliance that fomed in game. So far it has held. This is my first game, so I thought it made sense to tie my fortune to an ally. Right now I have a chance to finish in the top two in the game. But if we don't put you under first, that slips to top three.
13 Jun 09 UTC Autumn, 1911: If this is your first game then maybe you should learn the basics before making grand statements - what I'm saying is not an accusation, it's a fact - it's not bitter and petty, it is the most reasonable response I can give to the nonsense you stated above :)

You see:
1. There's no such thing as second place in this game. You can win, draw, survive or get eliminated.
2. FRA is the strongest one and can go for the solo win. Or he may decide to not risk it, keep his agreements, and settle for a draw.
3. You cannot win unless FRA let's you do it - which is, for all practical purposes, against the rules of the game - as people are expected to play for their own interest in any specific game.

In here, as in life, you have two options - be able to take feedback and learn, or stick to your convictions because 'that's how you do it' - which is the most mature approach to take if this is your first game, obviously :)
13 Jun 09 UTC Autumn, 1911: By the way, if you have a problem with what I'm saying I'd be delighted to take this discussion to the public forum. Which will in any case happen should I see you coming close to a win here. I've played with a lot of cheaters and they all had one thing in commong - all got too sensitive when someone inquired about their irrational behaviour - and most got banned in the end.

The ones who didn't turned out to be simply morons - in which case it is again good to spread the news. Because this is a game with 7 people, and when some of them have no idea what they're doing, but are religious about keeping it up, they ruin it for everyone else.
13 Jun 09 UTC Autumn, 1911: I apologize for my first sentence in the last post. I guess I misread your "if" statement as an accusation. I agree, if FRA were to open up and hand me the win, it would be against the spirit of the game, and how I want to play it.
13 Jun 09 UTC Autumn, 1911: So help me understand the scoring system. I didn't see it in the FAQ, or intro section, so I have been going on what I have been told or deduced. I thought that PPSC means you get a share of the pot proportional to your share of SC at the end of the game. Therefore having say 14 SC when the other guy wins would get you 41% of the pot, whereas a draw does not count SCs. Therefore a draw with two other players gets you 33%. In that situation, I thought it made sense to ride the alliance until no one else is left - in other words it is a behaviour incented by the scoring system. If I have that wrong, let me know.
13 Jun 09 UTC Autumn, 1911: Hi, ok, sory for being so direct - I guess I've had a bit too many such discussions and get quite impatient sometimes.

So, for the scoring system - in general what you're saying is true - you can get more points if you play for a strong second (12+ centers) instead of a 3-way draw (in our case). Beginning players go this way a lot. I think in the next version of the site they will change the scoring system - so that a winner will get 50% of the points, and centers will be counted afterwards (effectively meaning that the winner will get 75+%) exactly to stop this behaviour.

Apart from the PPSC center scoring system, the goal of the game is to do better and get a WIN/DRAW/SURVIVE/ELIMINATION. Coming second means someone else has won - which means you've lost the game :)
You will now get more points due to the current scoring system - but it's not the way to go - there's an alternative scoring system (ELO-type) - which ignores points.

If I acted the same way as you then I should now throw everything against you and stop defending against FRA - so that he wins before I'm eliminated - and this is what I'll have to do, unfotunately, if you two keep playing this way :(
The basic idea is that if everyone played to their best interest we'll get a 3-way draw now - as the two weaker nations will always jump on the third (bigger) one and then this will change forever. You saying you don't care if FRA wins makes the game absurd for me - as then the best course of action would be to also help him win faster.

So, to summarise, if you win this game that this will smell like cheating, and if FRA wins it will be simply poor play. The second option is not the best - but this entirely is up to you. However, unless FRA starts giving you centers you won't finish that much better than you are now (if at all) as after this discussion it is clear I have to start helping FRA win :(

It is hard to play with people who respond to 'what are you playing for' with 'I will keep playing against you, regardless of what I get for myself'. If you just want to move units tell me - I had a bit higher expectations :)
13 Jun 09 UTC Autumn, 1911: As you suggested above, I also asked about this in the forum (before I saw your latest post). One other thing I should point out - as a noob, I assumed that agreements between players should be rigidly adhered to, unless you wanted to get a reputation as a backstabber. Now that I have played for a while, I understand that the only way to win is to eventually fight everyone else on the table. As you say, it is probably bad play, but I am here to learn.
13 Jun 09 UTC Autumn, 1911: It is always good to honor agreements - but there should be some reasons to it - it should be in the interest of the nation your playing. Or at least not directly against your own interest.

Also, you don't need to stab - sometimes you can directly say 'sorry, but we're at war now, because...'

Anyway, if you are happy to lose this game there's no more room for diplomacy. Nothing more to talk about, is there? :)
13 Jun 09 UTC Autumn, 1911: To me, it comes down to the difference between PPSC and WTA. I have joined two other games, and made sure to stay away from WTA, because I don't have confidence yet that I can get a solo-win. In your case, I would think you would stick with WTA, and not join PPSC for tiny pots filled with sub-100 players. :)
13 Jun 09 UTC Spring, 1912: If I can chime in....

The way I look at, the prospect of coming in a strong second is very desirable - I've gotten many points from doing so. As well, working closely with another opponent in 'perfect synchronicity' is good practice. Trying to hammer out common strategic directions, and learning the fine art of compromise when deciding on the spoils of a campaign are invaluable skills.

In short, I think that sticking with an ally (even if you don;t come in #1) tends to work out better for you in the long run. In those games where I've fostered a close alliance with another player and then broke it, the tarnished reputation and fanatical desire for revenge on the part of the stabbee outweighs the direct benefit of the stab.

Just my $0.02 worth - I just have a different perspective than our friend the Sultan, I guess :)

As well, I've used the strategy of 'hope 1 player wins before I'm eliminated' before, and yes, it's a bitter pill to swallow, but it *has* worked for me.
13 Jun 09 UTC Spring, 1912: BTW Sultan, you're proving to be a very crafty (and tough) opponent. If anything, I've gotten invaluable experience in tactical warfare from all of this.
13 Jun 09 UTC Spring, 1912: I agree, Turkey continues to outwit me tactically.
13 Jun 09 UTC Spring, 1912: Vienna is a smoking pile of rubble at this point, and the remains of Army Group Albania litter the beaches like an unsuccessful Overlord...
16 Jun 09 UTC Congrats to FRA!
16 Jun 09 UTC Merci!
16 Jun 09 UTC The end came fast. Congrats.

Start Backward Open large map Forward End

France
wee_alex (1330 D)
Won. Bet: 10 D, won: 557 D
19 supply-centers, 16 units
Germany
Plastic Hussar (1375 D (B))
Survived. Bet: 10 D, won: 323 D
11 supply-centers, 12 units
Turkey
Ivo_ivanov (7545 D)
Survived. Bet: 18 D, won: 117 D
4 supply-centers, 6 units
Russia
Snelly (155 D)
Defeated. Bet: 10 D
Austria
cgriffin104 (100 D)
Defeated. Bet: 10 D
England
refrefref (100 D)
Defeated. Bet: 10 D
Italy
DarthZola (100 D)
Defeated. Bet: 10 D
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